Pita Msds

[Jeff 232]

I cleaned 4 out of 8 buildings on a condo property and another PWer did the other 4 buildings for a renovation company. I worked for the HOA.

I got a call from the HOA prez a week or 2 later and he was a nice guy and he asked what we used to clean the building. I asked him why he was asking. he told me they have a real PITA resident claiming that she & her little dog got sick from our PWing and that she got overspray on her & her dog. She said they both were vomiting and had diarrhea. I tol;d him I had the same thing, there a virus going around. He told me they always have problems with this PITA. I told hm it wasnt my chems but he asked for the MSDS's just in case. I told him I would send them, but I told him she has no case and told him to tell her to go to a doctor or lawyer, she has no case.

I got off the phone and then I thought, the PM had told me there was a few PITA's in the complex, but the biggest PITA was in a building we did not do. I called the other PWer I know who did the other buildings and asked him if he had any problems. OH YA, he told me about this lady & her dog and she complained to him a couple times saying he got her and her dog sick. He said she is in her 30's and a real NUT CASE. So I call the HOA prez back and ask him what building this lady is in and he told me hshe wasnt in my buildings so I asked why he's asking me for my MSDS's. She claims she was walking near our buildings when we were washing. NOW this B**CH already had complained about the other PWer and then even after she claims she got sick from him, she a couple weeks later comes around when we are washing and claims the same Bulls**t.

We posted every building we washed and the mailbox area and it states residents & guest to stay out of all work areas. Now this lady is full of crap and I'm really not worried about her at all, she isnt going to have any case and i dont really think she is trying for a case, because she hasnt gone to a doctor or lawyer from what I understand

MY QUESTION is do I have to provide the HOA or anyone on this property with MSDS's. I usually wouldnt care, but why should I give these MSDS's to someone that may use them against me. Im thinking let her get a lawyer which I dont really think is going to happen, but if she wants my MSDS's let her get a subpoena, screw her!!!!!!!

The HOA prez just said he wanted them just in case, I told him she should get a lawyer if she has a problem. I feel like telling him I rather not give him the MSDS's and tell him why and leave it at that

What do you think? Now I could give MSDS and i dont think thats a big deal either

Screw her

[racechaser 64]

Technically the MSDS is for employees and Emergency workers to deal with YOUR chems in case of an acident. I don't think a disgruntled resident has a "right" to see them.

But, giving them to HOA President is a MUST if they were requested. If you won't cooperate in resolving something that is minor, how will they know you will step up and do the right thing if something serious happens. The last thing the HOA or PM company wants is to be left hanging with no answers or help after they were the ones that may have vouched for you.

Now for the distribution of them to the President, I would cut the "trade name" (example-simple cherry) of the chemical off the top of the sheet. Leave the chemical contents, shipping, health, first aid and everything else.

You should tell him that your chems are proprietary and you can't give out brand names because you have spent thousands of dollars researching what works best.

Also make sure he is aware that the Bleach is only 2-3 % concentration. Your MSDS will give health effects for 12.5% only.

Cool off, Breathe, and remember customer comes first when possible.

Scott

[Jeff 232]

Technically the MSDS is for employees and Emergency workers to deal with YOUR chems in case of an acident. I don't think a disgruntled resident has a "right" to see them.

But, giving them to HOA President is a MUST if they were requested. If you won't cooperate in resolving something that is minor, how will they know you will step up and do the right thing if something serious happens. The last thing the HOA or PM company wants is to be left hanging with no answers or help after they were the ones that may have vouched for you.

Now for the distribution of them to the President, I would cut the "trade name" (example-simple cherry) of the chemical off the top of the sheet. Leave the chemical contents, shipping, health, first aid and everything else.

You should tell him that your chems are proprietary and you can't give out brand names because you have spent thousands of dollars researching what works best.

Also make sure he is aware that the Bleach is only 2-3 % concentration. Your MSDS will give health effects for 12.5% only.

Cool off, Breathe, and remember customer comes first when possible.

Scott

Good ideas, Im really not hot about this at all and not worried, I just hate idiots that have nothing better to do with their time but complain about everything

I did tell them about the 2-3% at most

Good Idea about cutting the name of chem(simple cherry)out

[racechaser 64]

Good Idea about cutting the name of chem(simple cherry)out

Yeah the last thing you want, is them buying your chems and doing it themselves.

Scott

[plainpainter 217]

Jeff - ever throught about getting the woman knocked off? You know - dirty deeds done dirt cheap! Hee hee. I sometimes get a bellyache working with my bleach house mix - but that's because I was scrubbing a whole hand for hours - like 8 - without proper protection. Someone who just walks by....well I am sure if you lived deep in the amazonian and ate what grew on the forest floor - and then came to civilization and walked by motor car exhaust and someone pressure washing - sure it may give 'em the runs, but for the most part people have to accept this as a way of life for living in society - I would not have given the president anything. It's none of his business - unless he tells you what chems he wants you to use, and whether you agree to go along or not. But nothing positive can come of him having those documents - should a mechanic give out msds for everytime he works on a customer car? Come on - the EPA has ruled out tons of chemicals for commercial and home uses - to use these chemicals in a way that they were not designed for is a federal crime! So that means either you are obeying the law or you aren't - let that crazy bi*tch get a lawyer - what's the pres going to do? "Here you go ma'am - here is the msds" Then she will say - "Oh dear it has harmful oxidizing chemicals - I am going to sue!!!" Try looking under the average sink - my mom has hydrofluoric acid rust remover - and doesn't even know it!

[John Orr 206]

If she were sprayed, she would have evidence. If it comes to it, require her to produce the clothes she was wearing on the day in question - they should be covered in tiny love spots.

[CDR17 14]

Yes, to giving the Pres. MSDS sheets and don't be surprise if they ask for the labels also. As for the lady she can get the MSDS from the pres. If you followed the laws on applying the products and necessary steps of having people and pets away from you when you are doing the work, you should be alright. Remember the label is the law when applying any products. Just for your information besides owning a wood restoration business I also own a pest control business so I know all about these kind of people.

If you don't have a terms and condition sheet that has something about keeping people and pets away from you when you are doing your work I would suggest that you make one up and have the person in charge sign it.

Charlie

[Jeff 232]

Yes, to giving the Pres. MSDS sheets and don't be surprise if they ask for the labels also. As for the lady she can get the MSDS from the pres. If you followed the laws on applying the products and necessary steps of having people and pets away from you when you are doing the work, you should be alright. Remember the label is the law when applying any products. Just for your information besides owning a wood restoration business I also own a pest control business so I know all about these kind of people.

If you don't have a terms and condition sheet that has something about keeping people and pets away from you when you are doing your work I would suggest that you make one up and have the person in charge sign it.

Charlie

Charlie, I do have it in terms & conditions and its on the signs I post on all the buildings I wash

The thing with SH its a pool chlorine 12% but it does say mildice and hard surface cleaner

She has no case, but you know if she sees this MSDS she will be more of a PITA. You know how MSDS's read, they sound like its the end of the world and I hate to give her any ammo for her crazy ass mind to read more into it then there is

This complex was dead the whole time we were there and my guys said they never saw anybody except the maint guy

Oh well, I'll probably give it up, but i just dont want to really help this nut case. I can see someone being concerned, but I am pretty darn sure she's lying. They all told me she is a NUT and have problems with her constantly

[PressurePros 249]

Of course she is trying to build a case. Whether or not she can win is of course, another story. Don't be surprised if the next call is for your liability certificate (if the PM doesn't already have it)

Another things comes to mind (Dan). Homemade brews have no MSDS and if Jeff used one he would be screwed.

[Jeff 232]

Of course she is trying to build a case. Whether or not she can win is of course, another story. Don't be surprised if the next call is for your liability certificate (if the PM doesn't already have it)

Another things comes to mind (Dan). Homemade brews have no MSDS and if Jeff used one he would be screwed.

Used 12% & Simple Cherry, isnt everything basically a home brew

[Douglas Hicks 128]

You have my sympathy. While we were testing a fire alarm system, I was spraying the smoke detectors. I was asked "What is in that stuff, I feel ill and think I should go home." Then she coughed. I looked at her and told her the chemical was FDA approved for children and animals. She shut up. In another case I heard of, the sprinkler company made arrangements to test and inspect a system. They were going to drain the piping, drill into pipes to inspect the interior of the pipe for corrosion and rust. Notices were posted in the building, tellling workers the slight odor they might detect was harmless and of no concern. The day the work was to be done, the sprinkler company got an emergency call and cancelled the scheduled job. Several people claimed they were ill because of the chemical smell. All request for time off were denied because the work was not done. A few days later the sprinkler contractor performed the job, w/o putting any notices up. No one felt ill, because no one knew the work was being done.

So with this dangerous chemical that made this PITA and her drop-kick dog sick, you must be near death yourself and you must have employees dropping dead like flies, right? Do you dispose of the dead employees your self or do you have a deal with the local mortician to double stack the bodies in coffins? Can you send me some of that chemical? I have a list of people who I would like to see eliminated. I can see a chance to expand your business in a whole new direction. Just give the MSD sheets to your contact, remove the brand names. Send a basket of flowers to the PITA, include a brochure and business card from a local funeral home.

In fact, maybe you and your competitor should think about a common front on this problem.

[PressurePros 249]

Using 12% hypochlorite, sodium metasilicate, sodium hydroxide and TSP all in raw form would be my definition of a home brew.

[plainpainter 217]

Ken - is it unlawful to apply cleaning chemicals that are all sold in some market be it online, hardware store, etc? If I make a brew of lye, tsp, 12% - what did I do wrong? On the side of Savogran TSP box - they give you a recipe for removing mildew. You carry around msds sheets for the benefit of firemen in case they have to clean your wrecked rig off of a highway. But I don't see how this is at all relevant to some crazy lady - what's the alternative - not use chemicals? Are these commercial places going to get cleaened or not - what law out there states that I have to give some homeowner an msds sheet? I ain't manufacturing chemical mixes for resale - they're all there on my truck in raw form TSP - Sodium Metasilicate - Sodiym Hypochlorite - Lye - Etc. That I all bought legally - that I use to clean homes with. I know you have to be licensed to use certain chemicals like crop sprayers over fields of soybeans or what not - but going to clean homes with Bleach and TSP subsitute you can find at any hardware supply - and then mix it into some pail and then apply and rinse - what was illegal about that? What are the facts? Perhaps your insurance agent would drop on the spot - and use this as an excuse - but heck insurance companies are just a bunch of scams - and will make up rules on the spot to not protect us. I just have never heard anything illegal about mixing basic cleaning agents to go and clean something - the second you mix bleach with water - isn't that a brew - or adding a scoop of simple cherry or TSP or what not. I say this whole business about giving the customer an msds sheet is poppy **** - if you give the pres the sheet - who will in absolutely hand it off to her - because he won't protect you one iota - then this lady will find some aggressive lawyer itching to go after you and make money. Because remember - civil courts aren't about who is right and who is wrong it's about what amount both parties can agree on.

[RPetry 564]

Jeff,

Might be of interest: The MSDS FAQ: Regulations

At the bottom of the page:

Dozens of homeowners have asked us about demanding/requesting MSDS's from contractors whose work they believe has caused them harm - for example, fumes, odors and/or illnesses from newly installed carpet, flooring, sealants etc. Although most contractors will gladly provide an MSDS, they are under no regulatory obligation to do so.

Please do not misconstue this post. I stain wood for a living and never studied law. But you may find some good information at this website and links therein.

[PressurePros 249]

Dan,

The issue you are forgetting is this.. Bob carries insurance for Simple Cherry and shares your liability. You start mixing chemicals and you not only have no insurance or backup you will also be suspect to a court/jury. I disagree about a civil court not determining right or wrong. One side will win. Let's say I am a judge/mediator/juror listening to a civil case. This lady says she was injured by a contractors cleaner. Now you step up, with no manufacturer to back you up, and start talking about how you mix that chemical and that chemical. I would glaze over and you would be guilty. Is that fair? No, but its how people think.

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jeff

If both (all) ingredients are branded and supplied by the same vendor as a "kit" with specific mixing instructions the mix (solution) is covered by the manufacturers product liability insurance.

If you mix ingredients together that are not a part of a "kit" you assume full responsibility for that mix. If you mix a solution for commercial use, you are required to have it analyzed and a MSDS produced or you are in violation of the law. If you mix your own solution, you are also required to follow all fair/safe labeling regulations if the product is to be stored/handled.

Unfortunately, the law applies to solutions as simple as bleach and dish soap. It's fine for a homeowner to do this, but if a contractor does it, all laws and regulations apply. In these cases, it's not about going to court and proving that your solution was "safe" it's about staying out of court to begin with. If a litigious person discovers that you are in violation of a law or regulation, you can be assured that will be the foundation for their case against you and your insurance company.

To get a feel for the level of liability, try this. . .

Call an insurance provider and request a rate comparison based on using "off-the-shelf" products vs. "home brews"

I'm not trying to discourage the safe use of home brews if you have the basic understanding of chemistry, and know what NOT to mix. I just wanted to share what I've learned. Sometimes I think it's insane the way things are evolving due to so much litigation. I understand the need to protect people, however the way the laws are set up, it seems to support if not encourage further litigation.

To (kind of) quote Rick. . .

Please do not misconstue this post. I sell wood restoration stuff for a living and never studied law. But you may find some good information at that website and links therein.

Good luck to you, I hope things turn out well.

[plainpainter 217]

Between Ken and Russell - I am going to dump my home brews. I see no problem mixing chems with my understanding - but this society is getting to be the most ridiculous blame game - actually I have had problems with tenement properties in the past - single home owners have not been a problem - but the second I step on multi-housing property - there always seems to be issues - to the point I get white trash yelling at the top of their lungs at me. One lady once blamed me for her picture frames falling off her walls - when I scrubbed the side of the home just prior to rinsing - can you believe that?

[Jeff 232]

Well I called the HOA prez and the PM. 1st the HOA I asked him wh exactly he wanted the MSDS and then I explained why I was asking. He told me she (the PITA has not asked for the MSDS and he doesnt know if she is smart enough to know about them. She has not complained since the 1st 2 times and he said he just wanted it in case she asks.

I explained to him since she is such a PITA, since none of my guys ever saw her and her dog near the buildings we were cleaning and since I just dont like the fact that she is a known trouble maker & a liar. I dont want to give the MSDS's to him so she can cause more problems, I told him if she wants to get a lawyer, Im not willing to help her. It was a good conversation and he understood and apoligized for the hassle.

I called the PM and told her what was said

I also told them both that she complained at the other PW company too and I know nothing will make her happy and as they both said she's a nut. I told them I'm not helping this nut. She can call me I'll be nice and thats all she is going to get from me

They both were fine with it

So hopefully case closed screw the nut job

[Jeff 232]

Som good info came out too thanks Rick, Russ & others

I'm going back to using only HIGH PRESSURE like when I 1st started. People dont like chems....I'll blast the s**T out of everything LOL

Just another day at the office

LIFE IS GOOD!!!!!!!

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jeff

Great news! Sometimes I think people are seeking attention as much as anything. If they make a big fuss and get everyone jumping through hoopps for them it helps to reinforce their self worth.

Glad this turned out well for you!

[Keth 15]

Just give them the MSDS for 6% Clorox and some bleach safe laundry soap and go to sleep knowing that nothing is ever going to come of it.

[John Orr 206]

The MSDS FAQ: Content

As I read this explanation of MSDS rules, a non-interactive mixture (where the combination of chemicals does not produce a different chemical) does not require a new MSDS. The individual MSDS's for those chemicals used is sufficient. There is also no process for having an MSDS approved - in fact, most are not fully compliant.

So, is your mix non-interactive?

[plainpainter 217]

Hey better yet - buy some Flood products, and keep them around the jobsite - and tell 'em those are the chemicals you used. How can they prove otherwise?

[Jeff 232]

Jeff

Great news! Sometimes I think people are seeking attention as much as anything. If they make a big fuss and get everyone jumping through hoopps for them it helps to reinforce their self worth.

Glad this turned out well for you!

I'm pretty sure thats what it was Russel, it amazes me how some people are just not quite right. hope thats it

Thanks

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The MSDS FAQ: Compliance

Great link!

Beth