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Deck nightmare

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well, here ya go. I need to share this and take your criticism.

Three weeks ago I quoted a job for a client on cleaning the sealing his deck.

The deck measured out to 1400 sqft, 21 ft rails, and 25(x5) lin ft of stairs. The deck was 4-5 years old and never been sealed/stained. Customer wanted us to "clean & seal" deck. No color was specified or wanted. We just started doing decks this year and bid $0.79($1264) sqft thinking we were in the low ballpark but would be a great job to add to our portfolio.

The customer said he had 2 quotes under ours and he wanted us to do it because a mutual friend referred us, yet he couldnt go any higher than the middle bid @ $974.00 thats $0.61 sq ft(are any of you actually doing decks for this low?)

We used EFC65 to clean, then brightened/neutralized. And returned to seal w/clear deckscapes sealer.

Now, when we arrived only the wife was home, so we did a small area & had her view this for approval. She approved and said it looks great. So we mask off and fininish the deck seal (pics attached). About when we were loading the last of our tools in the truck the husband comes out(we didnt see him arrive as we were around back) and tells us the color is what he wanted, its too bright/yellow. I told him we had his wife come out and approve the test area & she didnt mention any problems with the color at that time. He cut me off mid sentence & said "his wife didnt commission us", and the color is unacceptable.

Well, in attempt to sooth the customer We agreed to restain the deck with his choice of color for a measly $350.00.

Now heres the situation. I just started using the Deckscapes product so I call the Sherwin Williams tech & ask if it is possible to just reapply over the coat we just applied or if we needed to strip back & neutralize? Probably should have asked you guys instead eh? He told me we most certainly could just reapply new color seeing as the products were the same. We did! Using Deckscapes transparent stain.

Now, we have a customer complaining that he didnt want us to "paint" his deck(both coats combined gave us a solid stain result), the final product is unacceptable and that he wanted it stripped and re-stained at our expense.

Once again, to soothe the customer, we agreed that it does look like a painted deck & would correct the problem (because the guy that referred us is an influential friend) until he was satisfied. We stripped & re-stained (pics attached), and it has been 5 days yet no final payment or return call. He gave us a $500.00 deposit leaving a balance of $824.00. A low bid to start with and an obscene loss in re-doing deck. And were assuming he's unhappy with the final product from no return call or payment.

Never had a customer this difficult. We even removed stains from brick on the back of his house, and repainted the support poles on deck to match deck color. How far do you bend over for customers to retain integrity & honorable business practices?

Cleaning

[ATTACH]7602[/ATTACH]

Brighten & 1st color

[ATTACH]7603[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]7604[/ATTACH]

post-2636-137772180547_thumb.jpg

post-2636-137772180555_thumb.jpg

post-2636-137772180563_thumb.jpg

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Never mind - I see more pics.

So this guy didn't approve the product or color? Or the wife did? If an owner approved it, then that's a tough call. Why didn't he chime in to begin with?

Beth

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Wife approved on test patch. Husband didnt approve & said he contracted us. Why he didnt say something when he arrived home, cant guess.

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You did so many things wrong from start to finsih I don't know where to begin. But, thats the nature of starting off in wood restoration. More importantly you need to stop your bleeding.

Send him a certified letter with your invoice enclosed. If you don't received you payment in ten days, send another certified letter this time alerting the customer of your intentions to : 1) begin accruing interest at 2% per month 2) your formal notice of intention to file lien against his property and force sale and 3) Your intention to file claim in court at which point if he loses (he will) he will also be liable for your legal expense.

Your other choice, and this one is hard to swallow.. is to send him your invoice via registered mail and hope for the best. I'd say you have about 25% chance of getting your money this way.

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What did he say after you stripped off the stain and reapplied the third time? Looks less like a solid but still very opaque. How many call have you made since you finished the final staining? 5 days isn't terribly long. When was the deposit made? Before any work began?

If you're going to keep doing decks you need to work on your bid process. Start writing job proposals out with your quote on them. As well, tell the customer up front what you are going to do and what stain you are using. 90% of the time they are fine with what I present (wood tux), and therefore no worries. The other 10 percent we discuss and pick out a color. The stain is specified on the proposal which the customer must sign off on before work begins. As well you may want a separate contract or terms of service that explains things such as not being responsible for crappy foundation, or rotting wood, not responsible for items on deck, prexisting conditions including paint overspray, landscape damage, etc etc, blah blah blah

This way your customer signs contract and proposal and gives deposit, which should cover you legally (ive never had a problem so im not sure)

But yea in this case, I would wait 2 more days, call again, and if no response start sending a letter

Ken: what is registered mail?

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A word from the wise - I have profiled customers who tend to chisel you down as the worst sorts. Every time I have been chiseled down, in reality I was chiseled down even further. They are right up there with customers that want partial work - or they want you to paint their walls and separate out the cost to paint the trim, etc. If you want to do yourself a favor, remain steady on your price. Who signed the contract, him or the wife or both? I make both parties sign and let them know up front that either has choice over the other at the time that I may ask a question. If that was me, I would have said - uh - I asked your wife, she approved - and as stated on the estimate work could commence, if you want a change order that will be extra. People who try to make you for little to no profit - I wouldn't give them the time of day. I just gave an estimate to paint a house for $17,000 - and they haven't called back - because I am sure they will get estimates for $8,000. But guess what I will end up working for $8/hr and eating and breathing lead dust that will affect my health and kill my summer. Life is too short, if they can't pay - let 'em go with the cheap guys - let 'em suffer like that.

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Life is too short, if they can't pay - let 'em go with the cheap guys - let 'em suffer like that.

Exactly! You need to triple your bids, feel confident about yourself and your work, and learn to walk away from those people. I just had a recent "good friend" referal that wasn't happy with my high price. I'm not some snot nosed kid with a 1600 psi pw and a pump up. I took schooling, invested time/money, and educated myself via forums,books & courses. Hopefully you've done the same and you should be pricing & doing work like a college graduate, not a high school drop out. Just walk away from those people, a good name goes real far & you can't satisfy that crowd no matter what you do.

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You got yourself into a pickle. You know, like in baseball terms. four words of advice: Get it in writing!

If you get someone to approve a color, have them sign off on it. It is legal and despite the fact that the husband is the one who contracted with you, in contracting law, the spouse is quite capable of being a proxy and it is binding in the agreement.

Next thing is that just because someone says they got another estimate doesn't mean it actually exists. Ask to see it! If they can't present it, it's a bluff all intended to see if you will bite. It happens to us all the time.

My favorite response is: "Do you get to negotiate your price at the register?"

I don't get to so I stick to my prices. They are based upon formulas we have developed in order to maintain a profit margin and include not only materials but time factors not only for the labor but the office hours, travel expenses and various other overhead expenses. We have a coupon that basically covers any possible expense they may have in water and electricity we use in performing the work and that's all the break we can give and still remain competitively priced.

I can understand you are new and hungry but don't be foolhardy and naive enough to believe the tactics people use. Remember this if you don't anything else...For some people, it is their job to negotiate and trick their prospects into dropping their prices in order to get the best deal for the company they work for and they are darn good at it.

Your price to do a deck that size was a bit low for our demographic and to strip and re-seal the deck (not trying to sound condescending...but) you took a bath! If you did not get an addendum in place and signed before beginning, you will have one heck of a time collecting.

I don't think he is unhappy, I think the customer is playing you for every thing they can get by the sound of it and being new to this game that people play it is a very unfortunate lesson to learn but now you know better going forward.

Wasting anymore time on someone who didn't give you a color selection before the work is begun is just asking for trouble in our experience. As a matter of fact, we won't start until we have that in writing. It's that important. If you didn't get it, forget it. Otherwise, like you are now realizing, it is taking up time you could be spending on good customers who are straight with you to begin with. Also, you should mention somewhere in your agreement that the color result may not be the same and is dependent upon wood species, age, neglect or other irreversible inflictions such as previous coatings.

Move on and chalk this up to one of the most avoidable experiences you will ever have. Good luck!

Rod!~

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I aggree. Stay firm on your price. Do not lower it for your portfolio or because you are not that experienced. Customers should NEVER, NEVER, NEVER dictate your price. Danny boy could not have said it better. walk away from the nail biter shoppers.

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WOW is that F-ed up . we all have our nightmare story but yours takes the cake. go talk to the guy . knock on his door and try and settle with him. you have gone WAY out of your way to show effort even though the results were not the best. threatening letters and the like may not get your money if you did not have a signed contract. reasoning with him and his wife both present may resolve the situation. sounds like 3 parts of guilt on this one to me. the people at sherwin williams should have properly told you to strip the clear first but they may have assumed you were doing that. this will be the lesson learned . resolving situations with the least blood loss and satisfying a PIA customer. best of luck knock on his door !!! $800 + is too much of a write off to sit and wait for a check in the mail.

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Personally, I feel like you are getting involved in a much larger issue that you may not be realizing. Ever hear of buyers remorse? ok. so he goes and agrees to pay your "x" ammount of dollars for work to be done, and then husband goes rediculious on finished product, due to feeling guilty about spending amt. of money, and feels that he can get you to go down on your price by giving you a difficult time, hoping you will settle for whatever he gives you.

These people are EVERYWHERE!! Even with a signed contract and all corners rounded and all i's dotted and t's crossed you will still run into them. those which still give you a hard time, regardless of what you do, they are just unhappy people. In my opinion their marriage is a little disfunctional if the wife approves something, and then the husband has the nerve to cross her judgement and demand otherwise. It sounds to me like that marriage isn't 50/50. Heck what does she do, run to him to wipe his arse when he demands it.

I've actually walked away from jobs because of a feeling I get in my gut. you know like when something just "ISN'T" right. And doing a job for a mutual friend isn't one I'd take on. The only thing I'm going to do for my friends is get them a beer when they come over. Anything more than that leads to complications. Sure I'll "HELP" them do their deck, but I keep $$$ out of the equasion if I actually value the friendship. $$$ ruins a lot of things, friendships included, heck it's the #1 reason for divorce in america today.

My advice - Trust your gut, do a good job for a fair price, and get your act together when it comes to customers expectations. I would also go along with Ken's methodology to collect payment, however remember you share a mutual friend and there is going to be bad feelings regardless of the outcome on either behalf.

I had one instance where I delt with a customer much like the one you are describing. After job completed I knew I wasn't going to collect payment, by a conversation overheard the family was having financial problems. Something about a credit card, and he was yelling at his wife. Well.. he then tried to tell me he couldn't pay me for the job because it "WASN'T WHAT HE WANTED" heh. No hard feelings I said, I'll come back tomorrow,for "x/$" more, just sign this statement stating that the work performed was what was agreed on, and I'll attach the labels and invoices to send along with a claim to the court house.

If I really wanted to be a jerk I would have came back the next day stripped the stain I applied and left him a message stating" Here's a blank canvas, have at it picasso"

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Personally, I feel like you are getting involved in a much larger issue that you may not be realizing. Ever hear of buyers remorse? ok. so he goes and agrees to pay your "x" ammount of dollars for work to be done, and then husband goes rediculious on finished product, due to feeling guilty about spending amt. of money, and feels that he can get you to go down on your price by giving you a difficult time, hoping you will settle for whatever he gives you.

These people are EVERYWHERE!! Even with a signed contract and all corners rounded and all i's dotted and t's crossed you will still run into them. those which still give you a hard time, regardless of what you do, they are just unhappy people. In my opinion their marriage is a little disfunctional if the wife approves something, and then the husband has the nerve to cross her judgement and demand otherwise. It sounds to me like that marriage isn't 50/50. Heck what does she do, run to him to wipe his arse when he demands it.

I've actually walked away from jobs because of a feeling I get in my gut. you know like when something just "ISN'T" right. And doing a job for a mutual friend isn't one I'd take on. The only thing I'm going to do for my friends is get them a beer when they come over. Anything more than that leads to complications. Sure I'll "HELP" them do their deck, but I keep $$$ out of the equasion if I actually value the friendship. $$$ ruins a lot of things, friendships included, heck it's the #1 reason for divorce in america today.

My advice - Trust your gut, do a good job for a fair price, and get your act together when it comes to customers expectations. I would also go along with Ken's methodology to collect payment, however remember you share a mutual friend and there is going to be bad feelings regardless of the outcome on either behalf.

I had one instance where I delt with a customer much like the one you are describing. After job completed I knew I wasn't going to collect payment, by a conversation overheard the family was having financial problems. Something about a credit card, and he was yelling at his wife. Well.. he then tried to tell me he couldn't pay me for the job because it "WASN'T WHAT HE WANTED" heh. No hard feelings I said, I'll come back tomorrow,for "x/$" more, just sign this statement stating that the work performed was what was agreed on, and I'll attach the labels and invoices to send along with a claim to the court house.

If I really wanted to be a jerk I would have came back the next day stripped the stain I applied and left him a message stating" Here's a blank canvas, have at it picasso"

I think that you're on to something here. I have dealt with this a lot lately. The economy here is really bad, so a lot of people are getting pretty wierd. This guy sounds like a real *****. BTW - RAISE YOUR FREEK'N PRICES!!

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it's just a sign of the times man, money get's tight and people get cranky, and look to get something for nothing, or try to heckle you down as far as possible, and then may not even pay you.. The sad part is when you finish a job to said specs, and know there is really no reason not to be happy, and then to have to hassle about a price already negotiated, I feel like throwing these people into a street in china with 1 million rickshaw's plowing them over time and time again.. MY point is, if you can't pay, don't even call me. Heck this isn't habitat for humanity. Instances just as such will make you have a bad taste in your mouth, the sad part is if you can't shake it off, it will affect your future attitude, and it will be apparent to the "GOOD" customers out there. Hope you get your $$$ man..

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I know I've had a couple of nightmare jobs in my career. One problem is probably with the Deckscapes stain. Sherwin classifies it's water-bourne

semi-trans as a semi-trans when it looks more like a solid when its applied. I had

to strip and re-do a customer's deck because of this reason once when I applied

deckscapes. Don't touch the stuff anymore.

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Thanks all. I know that to not share this retards growth & wisdom. I will rewrite my bid process, contract clauses and implement new job guidlines. I guess this is how to improve procedures & policies, through the difficulties that we're faced with. I continue to read the forums, and learn more everyday. I also understand that in this economy I have run into more of these kind of clients than when the economy was in better shape.

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My suggestion is take this story and your contract to your Lawyer and ask him or her to edit the contract to address all of the issues raised here. It may cost a few bucks, but my guess is, not as much as you already lost on this guy.

My sympathies to you on having to deal with this guy. We all have our horror stories, but this is one of the worst I've heard in a while.

If it were me, I would go to the mutual friend and inform him or her that there is a problem and things may get ugly between you and the other friend and you do not want them to get invloved, but felt they should be aware. Don't give them any details and let them know you feel this issue is between you and the guy who contracted your services. If they really respect your freindship, they will stay out of it.

You are in a tough spot. Best of luck to you.

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Initially I would just go knock on the door before you start throwing threats out there. If the suprise visit doesn't cut it then take the next step. It's easy for people to ignore invoices and letters. Face to face tends to sing a different tune. I remember having one guy avoiding me a few years back after completing the job and I showed up on a Sunday at his house. He had a party going on with a bunch of people there :) - got paid and sent on my way quickly.

5 days really isn't nothing to worry about yet either in my experience. Our guys work off of work orders as I care not to share pricing with them so customers are invoiced at the end of the job. It's not unusual for a 10 to 15 day turn around in our case to get final payment. Anything beyond 15 days after the job completion gets immediate attention and a personal visit for collection.

11 years and I've only been burned twice fortunately. (knock on wood :) )

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