Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[Celeste 341]

This could be God's way of reaching out to you.

If you recall the story about "the man in the flood".

He believed in God and while the flood waters were rising, he kept telling folks that he knows God will save him. A boat comes by and he turns them away - God will, rescue me. He says the same when a helicopter comes by and when later a man on a raft. He ends up drowning. Upon his meeting with God, he asks God why he let him down - why did you not rescue me?

...and God says: I sent you a raft, a boat and a helicopter, did you not see them?

I absolutely LOVE that story - during a time of extreme strife in my life someone shared it with me and suddenly many many things that had occurred just prior to my hearing the story made perfect sense. It was a pivotal time of my adult life.

Celeste

[Paul B. 523]

For this and some other reasons many of my prayers are very specific.

I KNOW when I have been answered - and I KNOW it's not a coincidence.

When I had multiple injuries, I prayed for relief as the pain was getting unbearable (24hrs a day) and I don't care much for medication (even simple medicines make me unfunctional). I asked for quick relief because I could not bear it any longer. After several hours of tossing and turning without sleep, I also asked for God's hug. The hug was pretty much immediate - and I fell asleep. When I awoke, ALL my pains were gone (things that were torn were healed, things that were stretched were back in shape, and at least three separate areas were healed simultaneously). None of those pains have returned since. I have other pains that I ask God to allow me to bear. I don't want to use my quarter until I really need it.

Other times my prayers are pretty general: Please help - I'll take help in any form. When an answer comes, I don't question if these are coincidences either - I know they are answers.

[PLD 14]

In general (without having to resort to a Forest Gump on meth imitation), what are your thoughts on Evidence for a Young Earth by Dr, Russell Humphreys. (He lists some 33 resources for his summary - many of the scientific background.)

Do you find any of the arguments legitimate?

Or do you completely dismiss it/them due to his association w/AiG.

I'll have to go and read it. I have read some of the young earth writings they are worthy of attention, although I think most of the "fossils up high" arguments are very poor.

I don't dismiss anyones arguments based on their affiliation, unless it is affiliation with an obvious crackpot. In fact, I have very loose ties with the group that does ICR. I do read Christian literature on these topics. In fact, based on your knowledge of earth sciences I would anticipate that our reading "chart" looks something like this:

Person Secular Christian

Paul 20% 80%

Philip 80% 20%

Which may paint me to be a bit ignorant, but if you consider that most Americans christian reading list consists only of tracts left in the phone booth...

Also, you've managed to dance around and have avoided answering the question of what exactly YOU believe in. Are you ever going to reveal your deep secrets or will you continue to keep blaming your avoiDANCE on me?

avoiDANCE. <-- Very clever. Props for that one. As for my position, you must have passed it amoungst the bickering. I have been quite clear on most Q's. Just search back to some of the dialog between Mike and I.

Would it help if I remove myself as the liability? I could make this my last post on the subject if that's what it would take for you to reveal your full beliefs to one and all. After all, there may be a chance (be it so slight) that someone could help with whatever you are struggling with. This could be God's way of reaching out to you.

No, in fact please do not. Despite the fact that I dislike your style, your input is valid and needs to be heard by others.

As for struggling, I'm not. I am a born again Christian quite comfortable in my fate after death. I believes that some parts of the bible are parables based in fact included to convey a message from God to man. The great flood being one of them. The genesis account of creation being another. In a nutshell, you and I probably agree on alot of things. We just disagree heatedly on some issues.

I'm sure that you will ask how a man who needs facts and numbers so badly can I believe in the resurrection of Christ with almost no hard facts to back it up. I cannot answer that logically. I just do. Having read the account, and known/met followers, I have faith that the story is as told.

Where then does God fit into creation? Without getting very detailed and technical, let's just say beforet the big bang.

Are we an "accident" (your words)? I think so. I believe that an omniscient God was aware that man would come to exist from his actions, but that he probably did not directly guide the process. If you assume a non-omniscient God, then we was aware that LIFE would come from the process and would need to be dealt with.

Why Genesis, then? To explain creation to people who lived in 4500 BC, roughly 6400 years before the study of physics began.

If you recall the story about "the man in the flood".

He believed in God and while the flood waters were rising, he kept telling folks that he knows God will save him. A boat comes by and he turns them away - God will, rescue me. He says the same when a helicopter comes by and when later a man on a raft. He ends up drowning. Upon his meeting with God, he asks God why he let him down - why did you not rescue me? ...and God says: I sent you a raft, a boat and a helicopter, did you not see them?

I find almost frighteningly ironic that you and I hold very different opinions, but that you posed me with the same story that I use ALOT in discussion of faith.

I use it as an example of how man attempts to predict Gods behavior in his terms.

[Paul B. 523]

Phillip,

Thank you for your answers.

As for the story, it certainly can be used as a double edged sword but for me it holds a special message that has been confirmed many times by my specific as well as non-specific prayers. Don't get me wrong, I believe in coincidences - but my court of law also believes that too many coincidences can make for an easy conviction.

I'll give another example:

This builder I work with had his secretary call me one day and she left me a phone number to call back. The number she left me was unintentionally incorrect (as I later found out). Normally after finding out I have reached a wrong number I disconnect after a brief apology. However, in this instance that did not happen. The conversation took some odd turns and continued for several minutes. After several minutes the woman on the other end asked what kind of work I did. Upon finding out what I did, she told me that they (she and her husband) needed their house siding cleaned but didn't know who to contact or even if there was anyone that did that kind of work. She found it astonishing that her general prayer was answered (she prayed that her husband would do more work around the house - including cleaning the siding and refinishing their deck - they have a pressure washer and have stained their own deck previously). Neither had persued finding a contractor or had talked to friends about their specific needs and neither of them knew or knew of the builder or her secretary.

The builder was calling me to reject my bids because they were too high and I didn't negotiate with him as I was getting tired of the deflating pricing in the building trade. During this time I was in the process of implementing changes in business strategies and trying to shift certain type of work to another business that I'm in partnership in, while trying to increase the income per job per day in other areas. Fairly recent to this event I prayed for success in implementation of my strategy.

At the end of the day it turned out that the jobs I did for the people were more in value than what I gave up to the builder. In addition, and over time, this family referred me to many customers I was strategizing to obtain access to. The tightly gated and somewhat upscale community they live in had opened it's gates to my business and also had their needs met as many others were in need of my service but did not know where to look. While they are somewhat upscale, they are also more in the country rather than close to city which also makes my service in this field almost exclusive (not much competition). This family has also intruduced me to more opportunities with many high-end customers which allowed me to deversify into a different restoration area with again another new associate and now a very good friend.

While you could say I justified the incident and it is simply an "attempts to predict Gods behavior on his (on my) terms." I see it differently (the double edged sword). The so-called coincident almost single handedly fulfilled my shifted and new strategies in a matter of a few months.

There were other prayers within my strategy that were also answered specifically:

- severely slashing or eliminated advertizing costs.

- obtaining more indoor work for winter season.

- obtaining higher profit margin work such as roofing and exterior painting.

...and a few more.

Like I said, some of my prayers are pretty specific and some are not.

I thank God for all the answers, be it for my business, my personal, my family, my friends or for others.

[Jeff 232]

I have a question

Will George W Bush go to heaven or Hell? For past or present sins if he's ever sinned at all

Really !!!! Just wondering

[Mike Williamson 198]

I have a question

Will George W Bush go to heaven or Hell? For past or present sins if he's ever sinned at all

Really !!!! Just wondering

Everyone has sinned, and will do so again.

Where GW goes is between him and God...certainly not for me to judge. I don't even know him!

[Jeff 232]

Everyone has sinned, and will do so again.

Where GW goes is between him and God...certainly not for me to judge. I don't even know him!

I was just wondering based on others beliefs or yours if GW would go or not.

According to some here and maybe the bible too, I wont be going for my lack of total belief or my opinion on evolution. Even thou I love God its not enough.

If GW has sinned or is sinning, which I think he very well may have, does that me he's going to Hell with me

The little I've read of this thread most of the people in the world wont be going to heaven

[Mike Williamson 198]

I was just wondering based on others beliefs or yours if GW would go or not.

According to some here and maybe the bible too, I wont be going for my lack of total belief or my opinion on evolution. Even thou I love God its not enough.

If GW has sinned or is sinning, which I think he very well may have, does that me he's going to Hell with me

The little I've read of this thread most wont of the people in the whole world will be going to heavan

I sinned today too. That's what repentance is for. So no, just the fact that he sinned today, or yesterday, doesn't mean he'll go to hell with you. Whether he has followed the biblical plan of salvation will determine that.

No, loving God isn't enough. He said IF you love Him, keep HIs commandments. If you really love Him, you'll do what He asks of you.

[PLD 14]

Mike,

I'll let you and Paul field this one, but I think Jeff doesn't understand your answer about George W because he doesn't understand salvation through Christ. Give him a nickel tour and I think he'll better understand why you are not capable of answering his question about George W.

Philip

[Paul B. 523]

God makes all FINAL judgements.

We have no way of knowing what is really in each person's mind and hearts (we only see some of their actions).

(My perspectives)

Believing in God is the first step - but it needs to go further.

If you believe in God, you should then try to establish a relationship with him starting now. Kind of like raising children - I don't think it's enough just to be good to your children - children need guidance, food, discipline, encouragement, clothes, teaching, be allowed to make their own mistakes (and acknowkedge them - repent) and many, many things. You as a parent, make many mistakes along the way as well as the children will. In most cases, even with all the mistakes, most parents will love their children and most children will love their parents - the severity of the actions, or lack of actions will determine the final relationship between parents and children. God is our Father and we need to follow His directions and work on our relationship. Our actions or lack of action will determine the status of our final relationship

(Personally) I think there are many misinterpretations - only by continually reading and studying both the Old and New Testaments will things become clear/clearer.

I read the Bible from cover to cover each year and also read sections over and over again. Each time I read, somethings become clearer and things fall into place. I talk with different people, I read different materials and watch programs dealing with Christianity, Judism, Muslim beliefs as well as Budhism and other beliefs as well as scientific materials dealing with evolution and anything dealing with life. Each interaction brings something to the table.

For example, sometimes while gardening, nature and intelligent design is ever so clear to me. Clarity of interactions and sequences of rain, sun, soil, drainage, effects of wind after rain, how strong winds come after each rain and dries the surface of the ground but not within, etc., etc..

When it comes to everlasting life, (again, personally) I don't think one should stick their head in the sand and hope that everything will work out (especially if the opportunity has been offered). If things are unclear, one should seek clarification, verification and re-verification - in context.

Questions for opinions:

- Do any/many Christians pray to Christ or to God in Christ's name?

- Is Christ son of God? or God in human form?

- When Christ (in his last days) prayed, was he praying to his Father and did he not tell man exactly how to pray to God (his Father)?

- Do Christians pray to Mary (Jesus' human mother) or in her name?

- Is believing in Jesus critical? or Believing in the words of Jesus (that we are sinners and we need to repent for our sins - and that God has acknowledged that we will continue to sin but we need to make a serious effort to avoid sinning, and recognize when we sin, etc.)?

[alvisishere 66]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

WOW.....I sure wish I was around when this was the Hottest Thread!!!!

[tinsley 14]

me too

[tonyshelton 112]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

We humans inherently strive for something more than just this life.

That is something my dog does not have. That's something a chimp does not have.

We search for the reasons behind that striving within us.

We either die while still searching, die without caring or die after having found the reason.

Those who have found the reason look at everything through the glasses of what they have found.

If you stand facing the end of a line of string and I ask you to tell me what what is in front of you, you would rightly say "a dot" because you can't see what is behind the dot.

You would argue from here to eternity that the object in front of you is a dot. But without any idea of what is behind the dot you'll never know it is actually a long string.

If I told you "it's a string" it would be up to you whether to believe me or not based on comparing other information you have gotten from me and a thorough analysis of my past history of telling the truth.

I would be right. From where I'm standing I can see that it's a string. You would be wrong because you are only basing your judgement on what you can see.

That's the difference between evolution and creation.

[James 625]

I think Religion was responsible for the first Direct Marketing Campaign Guide Lines and Principals . Buying into God or selling your self to the Devil - Heaven Or Hell it's your choice ? I think they started with 12 VP's of Direct Marketing that went out with a message? The rest is history!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Wow...now here's an old thread that went on and on and on....

Beth

[Scott Stone 604]

Oh man, Beth pulled a Ron...

[Abide Window Services 14]

Many often think that Fact (science) and Faith are mutually exclusive, meaning that they are like oil and water. However, I find that Faith can be very factual. There are very reasonable explainations for this.

First we know scientifically that there will be an end to the universe. We know this by the 2nd law of thermodynamics which is also known as the entropy, meaning that over time matter loses energy and breaks down. Because we know that there is an end to the universe we know that the universe is not eternal (like many evolutionist believe). Therefore knowing there is an end we also know that there is a beginning to the universe.

Now that we have established a begining to the universe there must be a Beginner. What caused this to begin? energy whirling around in outer space...or is there a Driving force behind what we see. Look in nature, what do you see? you see cycles i.g. water vapor, nitrogen etc, we also have seasonal cycles and patterns woven throughought nature. Each cycle is unique and plays a specific role in sustaining life on Earth. we see design on a microscopic level as well on a macro level. We know that behind every painting that there is painter, behind every building is a builder so its not far fetched to think that behind the design of the earth there is a Designer of Earth.

There are also Anthropic principles to the universe stating scientifically that Earth uniquely designed to sustain life. For instance if the earth was one degree closer to the sun we would fry, if it were one degree away we would freeze. if the ratio of oxygen in the atmosphere was a degree different we would suffocate. There are plenty more examples.

I can go on but needless to say that it is easy to have faith, because my faith is factual. Hope that helps

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Sounds like a proponent of Intelligent design to me.

This earth has been around for a long time and quite longer than is given in the bible which in terms of history only equates to about 6000 years.

Rod!~

[Thad 135]

Oh man, Beth pulled a Ron...

I saw this thread pop up and thought "What the heck?".

When I saw who bumped it I did a little fist pump. That was awesome!

Superbump- FTW!

[tonyshelton 112]

At the rate we are driving around now I wonder why evolution hasn't caused us to start growing little wheels instead of feet? It's so much more efficient.

If evolution was smart enough to develop wings on birds for them to fly, why haven't we started to grow wings? We are the only species that desires to fly, as attested by the large amounts we will pay to do so.

Finally, we are starting to develop a software that can listen to what we can say and do it. We are little behind evolution, Evolution made that a few thousand years ago. It's called a child. Amazing how pure chance can produce something we can't even put together properly today.

Now we can wear glasses an see a tv in 3D. Somehow pure chance made that possible with most creatures thousands of years ago.

Chance is amazing......yeah right!