Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[HotShot 34]

Hey John, did you sell your car yet?

[Deck Guy 14]

I actually read this thread from beginning to end today, and have to say I am impressed with the knowledge of all who entered into this debate. I tend to support science over religion as far as this debate goes, but...

As for me...I'm still searching. Faith isn't something I can force myself into, because wanting to believe isn't the same as believing. Why do I have all these questions while others are so certain? Members of my own family are very dissapointed in me for admitting that I am unclear as to my faith. Undoubtably, I have had issues with organized religion for some time.

[John T 744]

Why specify priests? Yes, there are a few priests (and ministers of other denoms) who have molested children, but the vast majority have not, would not, and feel as strongly against that behavior as you do. Why not just say "...and any person who has molested a child." Whether it be a priest or not.

I singled out Priest because I'm Roman Catholic by birth and yes all Child Molesters should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but priest that did this..in my book there the worst. I would waste them as fast as I could waste Osama..Hate those two the most..I am allowed to hate right:) Mike you asked this question and it comes down to this. You expect and should hold a priest in the highest regard in the religion and the ones that molested KIDS well now you know why I singled them out.and yes I'm not to religious as you can tell but you asked me my opinion and there it is. The ones that are in the most respected position and deal with people in need especially kids and then violate them...I don't think I need to explain myself any more on this..I'm getting upset just writing this..so there's your answer...and no I never was molested and if I was the sucker today wouldn't be walking the earth...

As for my car its still listed on Ebay but its sold. Tomorrow I'm picking up the Cash and taking it off of Ebay. Thanks for asking.

[HotShot 34]

Hey Larry...I love your avatar man....that is funny...

I always hear people say that science disproves the Bible and all that stuff when in fact it Confirms the Bible. Bear with me.....

The Bible Science then (2-3K years ago) Science now

The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22..........the earth was a flat disk....................the earth is a sphere

Innumerable stars (Jeremiah 33:22).........Only 1,100 stars.............................inumerable stars

Free float of earth in space(Job 26:7)..........earth sat on a large animal................free floating earth

creation made of invisible elements(Heb 11:3)...science was ignorant............made of invisible elements

Each star is different(1 Cor.15:41).....all stars were the same...................different

Light moves(Job 38:19,20).................light was in fixed place...................light moves

Air has weight (Job 28:25)...................air was weightless.....................air has weight

Winds blow in cyclones(Eccle. 1:6).............winds blew straight.................cyclones

Blood is the source of life and death(Lev. 17:11)....Sick people must be bled...........blood is source

Ocean floors contain mountains and valleys(2 Sam.22:16; Jonah 38:16)...ocean flat....mtns and valleys

Ocean contains springs(Job 38:16)........ocean fed only by rivers and rain............contain springs

Hands should be washed under running water (Lev. 15:13)....washed in still water.......running water

Genesis 3:15 reveals that a female possesses a seed for childbearing. This was not the common knowledge until a few centuries ago. It was widely believed that only the male possessed the seed of life and that the woman was nothing more than a glorified incubator.

I think that science has taken awhile to catch up to the Bible. Dude, I know there are some difficult questions out there and I don't deny them. If you truly have some questions that you would like answered.....please ask, I will try my best to answer them. Hope this helps a little :)

[HotShot 34]

John, I agree with you about the priest.....they are suppose to be holy men of God and I would hate to be them on the day of judgement. Let me tell you what Jesus says about them......Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea...

these priest will pay for their crimes..you can count on it.

[Paul B. 523]

If I remember correctly - it also states in the bible that many scientists will be proven wrong in their theories. (Some of the misses are listed already - many more to come.)

I also think science confirms the bible and creationism.

How easy is it to buy that we came about from a single cell by accident.

Accidentally there were male and female humans formed (or even monkeys/apes) and all with two arms/hands, two legs, two eyes (not a cyclop, 3 arm/3-legged, 2-headed species in the bunch). How our bodies work - from genes to blood; from the heart to the lungs and stomach; procreation - it's all "sooo" perfect by accident.

By accident all different animals were formed from a single cell - so many different but so many the same or similar - by accident (that's a lot of accidents with similar results).

What about vegetation, trees, etc. - all by accident.

The perfect atmosphere for humans and animals to live under - all by accident.

I look around every day and think after seeing all the marvels of life - How can people belive all this was a series of accidents?

For those that are searching? Continue, don't give up - it will come together.

...and don't hold IT against organized religion as they are all comprised of humans who are fallible.

As an after-thought: Science says that matter can't be created or destroyed - just re-arranged. I believe our souls can't be destroyed, just re-arranged. Most humans tend to think of death being a bad thing (forget the brainwashed, suicidal terrorist with 72 virgins on their minds) where in fact death is a part of life and we move on to better things and more experiences - part of our growth comes from our time on earth. A church full of people dying may heve been their reward (it's all about perspectives). Our life on earth is short compared to eternity. Life on earth is an experience - God is also experiencing life through our experiences.

I too have had many results from my conversations with GOD - some are simple as a hug or easing my mind about a worry so I can go to sleep, where others were more complicated. Talk to GOD and be specific, don't be afraid to ask questions or ask for specific things on specific time frames. What can you lose? ...but more important - What can you gain?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I felt this was pertinant...

These people should be dealt with with swift and accurate justice..

"Vengeance is mine [sayeth the lord] Judge not! lest thou be judged"

Rod!~

[Guest Danebob]

Not only is God a God of Love, but also of Wrath, and justice. Acts 17:31 Because He has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

God is not some little fairy floating around loving everybody....He doesn't love everybody!! If you are not born again then His wrath abides upon you-John 3:36

You are an enemy of God in your mind through wicked works...-Colossians 1:21

Not to take away from you post danebob, it was a very good post, but it's important that sinners know that because of their sin, (breaking the laws of God) God is not going to turn a blind eye to it...they must Repent and Trust in the Saviour

No worries man thank you for mentioning that. I do believe his wrath is upon unbelievers. But he still loves them as much as he does those who do believe. We are sinners too and subject to his wrath and by his grace each and every soul is welcome in his kingdom through his Son Jesus Christ. The well known vs. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Fohn 3:16 and only by his grace are we recieve into his kingdom.

[Guest Danebob]

I actually read this thread from beginning to end today, and have to say I am impressed with the knowledge of all who entered into this debate. I tend to support science over religion as far as this debate goes, but...

As for me...I'm still searching. Faith isn't something I can force myself into, because wanting to believe isn't the same as believing. Why do I have all these questions while others are so certain? Members of my own family are very dissapointed in me for admitting that I am unclear as to my faith. Undoubtably, I have had issues with organized religion for some time.

Faith isn't somthing you should force yourself into. But I can tell you that for me it has been a joyous journy. there is growing to be done daily. Sir, Just believe on him who sent his son to die for your sins. God will reviel himself to you. The bible has and answer to each and every one of your Questions. I have been a Christian for fifteen years and I still have Questions. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowlege. Once you can put God first, he will show you everything you need to know.

Well, keep searching the faith, you will find what your looking for. If you like email your Questions to me Coastalwc@ec.rr.com i will do my best to help you.

In Him-Dane

[TNT Pressure Washing 14]

Larry...I just wanted to let you know I'll be praying for you.

[Deck Guy 14]

Its been a rough couple of days here... the fifth anniversary of the death of my father-in law on 9/8. You can guess what 9/11 was like with those two things together.

He accepted me as his own son, and I loved him as my own father. I can certainly see how stronger faith can help through difficult times. That being said, I always have felt it was my job to be strong for my wife and son when this time comes around.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I actually read this thread from beginning to end today, and have to say I am impressed with the knowledge of all who entered into this debate. I tend to support science over religion as far as this debate goes, but...

As for me...I'm still searching. Faith isn't something I can force myself into, because wanting to believe isn't the same as believing. Why do I have all these questions while others are so certain? Members of my own family are very dissapointed in me for admitting that I am unclear as to my faith. Undoubtably, I have had issues with organized religion for some time.

I can understand family being disappointed, but it is in all likelihood because they're concerned for your soul.

From my point of view, you have one very powerful thing going for you....you're honest about where you're at Spiritually, and you're asking questions. God can work with that. It is when people can't be honest with themselves about where they're at with God, and don't feel like dealing with the uncomfortable feelings that go along with introspection.

I singled out Priest because I'm Roman Catholic by birth and yes all Child Molesters should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law but priest that did this..in my book there the worst. I would waste them as fast as I could waste Osama..Hate those two the most..I am allowed to hate right:) Mike you asked this question and it comes down to this. You expect and should hold a priest in the highest regard in the religion and the ones that molested KIDS well now you know why I singled them out.and yes I'm not to religious as you can tell but you asked me my opinion and there it is. The ones that are in the most respected position and deal with people in need especially kids and then violate them...I don't think I need to explain myself any more on this..I'm getting upset just writing this..so there's your answer...and no I never was molested and if I was the sucker today wouldn't be walking the earth...

Agreed...The position they hold brings a higher level of responsibility. I wasn't trying to upset you, or suggest you were molested or anything like that.

"Vengeance is mine [sayeth the lord] Judge not! lest thou be judged"

We are also told to judge righteous judgement. The point is to not judge hypocritically. If I'm a child molester and I say "Those dirtbag child molesters should be killed" that makes me a hypocritical judge, and I will be judged as I have judged.

Also, Romans 13 explains that God has ordained civil government/authorities to deal with evildoers...

(Rom 13:1-5 KJV) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. {2} Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. {3} For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: {4} For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. {5} Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Its been a rough couple of days here... the fifth anniversary of the death of my father-in law on 9/8. You can guess what 9/11 was like with those two things together.

He accepted me as his own son, and I loved him as my own father. I can certainly see how stronger faith can help through difficult times. That being said, I always have felt it was my job to be strong for my wife and son when this time comes around.

You've got my prayers, both for your emotional healing as well as your Spiritual seeking.

[CCPC 26]

This is exactly why religious debates really ought to be avoided in an online forum such as this. I find what you're saying to be offensive, since you're basically saying that my entire experience with God (which is fairly extensive and quite interactive) has been nothing but a delusion of my mind. I can assure you that it is not, for very valid reasons I'll not go into here.

That's all I'll say on the issue, since I do NOT want this thread to get ugly as I believe it did in the past. Religion and politice (and the proper roof cleaning chemical) are the WORST topics for discussion in the relatively anonomous online world. They are topics some people feel VERY VERY passionate, regardless of which "side" you are on. That passion often translates into hurt or offended feelings, and much too often, an offensive or very personal response. It's too easy to say things at a keyboard that you would NEVER say to a person's face.

No offense Mike, just stating a few of my own beliefs and view points. So basically what you're saying here is, its OK to speak your mind as long as it fits the belief system of everyone else? Non-majority view points need not reply? Gotcha. just wanted to be clear about that.

In any case, I'm a firm believer in evolution. A few have stated how can it be an accident that the world and environment is so well suited for use humans and other animals. Well.... that answer is simple, after millions of years of changing and evolving, our ultimate goal, as living organisms, is to adapt to our surroundings as best as possible. After all that is what evolution is to began with. The fact that we do perceive the world to be such a suitable place for use is only proof that evolution is working. As the earths conditions change slightly here in there over vast lengths of time, we will change along with it (that is, if our species doesn't end up getting left behind).

[HotShot 34]

Hey Lance...my wife's best friend is an atheist....well, actually agnostic, I converted him :D

I think people can discuss religious issues and stay civil...even if they can't, so what. Jesus was spat upon, all of the disiples were either stoned, or hung, or beheaded...and killed. If I can't take a couple of insults from another keyboard jockey, then my faith is not very deep. A christian should be willing to die for his/her faith, yet most of us get all bent out of shape over some words....

Anyway Lance, I'll post some more for you a little later on, I gotta run right now....

[CCPC 26]

Hey Lance...my wife's best friend is an atheist....well, actually agnostic, I converted him :D

I think people can discuss religious issues and stay civil...even if they can't, so what. Jesus was spat upon, all of the disiples were either stoned, or hung, or beheaded...and killed. If I can't take a couple of insults from another keyboard jockey, then my faith is not very deep. A christian should be willing to die for his/her faith, yet most of us get all bent out of shape over some words....

Anyway Lance, I'll post some more for you a little later on, I gotta run right now....

Good reply Anthony. You show a lot of calm-confidence in what you believe in, which is a great thing. One thing that's always bothered me is when people display somewhat of a belligerent anger when someones beliefs are different from their own (that's how wars are started), and that statement is in no way directed toward anyone on here.

I've actually had people come to my door to voice their faith, and then have the nerve to get mad at me because I don't think the same way they do. I hate that.

[John T 744]

In any case, I'm a firm believer in evolution. A few have stated how can it be an accident that the world and environment is so well suited for use humans and other animals. Well.... that answer is simple, after millions of years of changing and evolving, our ultimate goal, as living organisms, is to adapt to our surroundings as best as possible. After all that is what evolution is to began with. The fact that we do perceive the world to be such a suitable place for use is only proof that evolution is working. As the earths conditions change slightly here in there over vast lengths of time, we will change along with it (that is, if our species doesn't end up getting left behind).

Yup thats pretty much how I see it and I also most likely believe that there is a GOD and in this country I can have it both ways. Ah the beauty of freedom...

So If I had to classify myself because alot of people like to do this about others and themselves I would say that I believe in God, I support my local Church and I do believe in Evolution...How's that for an American mixture..just like our nationalities which are many for some of us.

[Deck Guy 14]

I can't really buy the argument that since science doesn't explain things to your satisfaction, God must have had a hand in them.

For thousands of years, man didn't know why the sun rose in the east and set in the west. Scientists did eventually come up with a pretty solid explanation for that one though, didn't they? Where would we be now if we didn't look to explain our world through use of the scientific method? Living in caves I presume. We can't always assume that because something is beyond our understanding, that it is divine.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Heres a mind bender:

What if all this we are trying to figure out on how things work only applies to this 3D reality we exist in? I tend to think out of the box and this is something that through meditation has become a major possibility in my experience.

Rod!~

[HotShot 34]

Good reply Anthony. You show a lot of calm-confidence in what you believe in, which is a great thing. One thing that's always bothered me is when people display somewhat of a belligerent anger when someones beliefs are different from their own (that's how wars are started), and that statement is in no way directed toward anyone on here.

I've actually had people come to my door to voice their faith, and then have the nerve to get mad at me because I don't think the same way they do. I hate that.

Lance, I think the reason people get angry, or it comes across that way is because most of the door-to-door types think that they have to earn their salvation. For by grace are we saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9. I know exactly what you are talking about though because I use that opportunity to share the truth to them and they don't like it most of the time....oh well :D One thing I will say though is when you are truly "born again" God puts in your heart a compasion for people to not want them to go to Hell. The Bible describes this place as a real place that was created for the fallen angels (demons) and Satan, but sinners will also go there when they die. We don't want anybody to experience that and neither does God. That's why I talk about this stuff with you guys and why I'm willing to accept being spit on and talked about and all the other stuff that comes along with it.

So If I had to classify myself because alot of people like to do this about others and themselves I would say that I believe in God, I support my local Church and I do believe in Evolution...How's that for an American mixture..just like our nationalities which are many for some of us.

John...You descibe yourself as what's called a "theistic evolutionist" There are some famous scientist that believe this way. Dr. Laura believes this way. From a biblical standpoint there are some problems with this view. You can't have death before sin is one of them. God would be the bad guy if people are dying before the fall of man.(Adam and Eve story). Sin is why we have death, destruction, disease, plagues all that kinda stuff. 2nd...Gen 3: 20 Adam calls his wife Eve which is the mother of all living. If it took millions of years to go from monkey to human that would mean that Eve was a monkey and we have the actual geneoligies in the Bible. So and So begat so and so, all the way from Adam to David, to Jesus. Either the Bible is wrong or millions of years is wrong....we can discuss that...but one or the other has to be wrong.....right? :) Hope that makes sense :)

I can't really buy the argument that since science doesn't explain things to your satisfaction, God must have had a hand in them.

For thousands of years, man didn't know why the sun rose in the east and set in the west. Scientists did eventually come up with a pretty solid explanation for that one though, didn't they? Where would we be now if we didn't look to explain our world through use of the scientific method? Living in caves I presume. We can't always assume that because something is beyond our understanding, that it is divine.

All the more reason we can't put our faith in scientists. The Bible said the world was round a long time ago Isaiah 40:22...science didn't figure that out until a few hundred years ago.

Heres a mind bender:

What if all this we are trying to figure out on how things work only applies to this 3D reality we exist in? I tend to think out of the box and this is something that through meditation has become a major possibility in my experience.

Rod!~

If I understand you correctly Rod, you seem to be dabbling in demonic activity. I could be totally not getting what you are saying and I'm sorry if I am, but if you're into the whole meditation, new age, hindu , yoga kinda stuff...be very careful. I thought I've read posts from you saying that you are a christian though so I'm sorry if I'm jumping to any conclusion..

Look guys, let me give you a little scenario to make a point about evolution. If you walked up your driveway (assuming you have one) and you saw ten leaves lined up in a perfect row. The first thing that you would say to your wife (assuming you have one) would be "who lined those up" correct? Something as simple as that we know would have to be designed, much less our body, the solar system, a pressure washer...If there is a design, there has to be a designer. If there is a painting, the proof that there was a painter is "the painting" itself.

Just think about it for awhile you guys.....

[John T 744]

ANthony you bring up some really great points and you seem very Knowledgable on this subject so to me personally I would have a hard time debating and debunking(If thats even a word:) ) most of what your saying. But I will add this. From the little I know about the Bible because I never read it and at this time in my life I dont have an interest in reading it most of what was put in the bible was put in there by man. Man has been known to exaggerate or not get a story straight when its been passed down so many times. This is how Myths sometimes get started. Like Maybe Moses Parting the sea.

I will say this..you must have faith and that faith in my opinion must be blind and undenying faith. If you have that in any religion that could be a great thing or as in some cases as with extremest it could have deadly consequences...Only each individual knows where they stand on all of this and hopefully they do the right thing whatever there decisions are...

[PLD 14]

Heres a mind bender:

What if all this we are trying to figure out on how things work only applies to this 3D reality we exist in? I tend to think out of the box and this is something that through meditation has become a major possibility in my experience.

Rod!~

Yep. Just a small deviation in Plank's constant, and life as we know it would not be the same.

[PLD 14]

Look guys, let me give you a little scenario to make a point about evolution. If you walked up your driveway (assuming you have one) and you saw ten leaves lined up in a perfect row. The first thing that you would say to your wife (assuming you have one) would be "who lined those up" correct?

That would be a normal reaction. One I might have myself. But, in the context of sceintific method, it is completely wrong because it makes assumptions.

There are hundreds of possible explanations for the 'abnormal' alignment of the leaves. For instance, there may have been an object (such as a hose) located there that the leaves blew and rested against. Now removed, the leaves appear to have been placed there deliberately.

One might ask, what are the odds of the leaves landing like that. To which, a physicist (or statistician), would likely reply; 100%

The more I study physics, the more I am convinced of two things. 1) There is a God. 2) Man is far too eager to grasp seemingly miraculous, but easily explainable, things as proof that God exists.

[PLD 14]

As an after-thought: Science says that matter can't be created or destroyed - just re-arranged.

Conservation of matter is just a wee bit dated. Pre WWII in fact. Every heard that E=mc^2. That's the equation for the complete destruction of matters and it's conversion to energy in the process.

For a more updated view, google "First law of thermodynamics" or "conservation of energy"

[John T 744]

The Nutty part about this whole thing is that so many different religions have such diferent beliefs and there are hundreds of religions if not more. For all we know the Scientoligist who believe Alians where here way before we where could be right..who the heck really knows....I do know that when you act crazy, no matter what people might think, you are a bit. Just look what happened to Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson recently and these two are far from being dummies.

I actually like both of those guys and I dont care what there religious or political beliefs are. I just judge them on how good there movies are. IF there movies stink I wont see it....But when it comes to extrememst such as a Hitler, Stalin or now Osama Bin Laden no matter what these guys would do or could do I would never ever support them with anything.

Extremest are just to tough to deal with and there minds are shut and not open to discussions like where having here.

I would love to have a sitting with the Pope and ask him a zillion questions to see what his answers are and like everyone else I know he would tell me that you have to have that magic word FAITH. You just have to believe it and to stop trying to analyze it..which for me that would be a problem at this point in my life. I'll tell ya's we'd really could use a person like a Jesus Christ to re-appear now and to show all that there is a God that all could see without any debates. No mysteries no nothing.

[PLD 14]

Didn't Charles Darwin became a Christian before his death?

No, he did not. There is one woman who knew CD and made that claim, but it is disputed by his friends and family. including his wife who was a Christian.