Faith vs. Fact (Creation vs. Evolution)

[John T 744]

If you look at the news you will see that people put religion way up there. They Live by it and they will die for it. 9-11 for example.

Why do people have blind faith?? My Nephew who is very intelligent and somewhat religious attends Rutgers University. He went to an organize debate titled EVOLUTION v. CREATION. Evolution is more or less stating that we came from a cell and went from there. Creation is that God put us here(Adam and Eve) and we came from there.

The debate in a nut shell went like this....All the facts that the Evolution side put on the table the Creation side tried to tear it apart but the Creation side really couldn't put up any facts for themselves since there side is built on faith and hearsay(Bible which is past down thru men/women)

So I ask why do people put faith ahead of fact? Is it a character flaw that we as humans have?? Is it the guilt that is bread in us that if we don't believe in God we are terrible people and we will go staight to.......

In the shortest words possible since most of us can write a book about this ---Why do you think Faith does thru-out the Planet beat Fact most of the time when it comes to Religion???

[One Tough Pressure 580]

I am not a religious person, but have nothing against any religion, as long as someone does not knock on my door and try to sell me on their faith. And they always come at the worst possible time it seems.

I think it all comes down to how a person is raised. If they come from a very religious family, and went to church every week and sometimes more, it is what they were raised to believe. Kind of like the parent that tells their child that they need to play a specific sport and be the best, or they will be a no one.

I had friend that was told by their parents that they needed to be the best Christian or else they would be a failure in life. Due to what they were told, they acted upon that and did everything they could to be the best. Nothing wrong with that, but I do think that their are other priorities in life other than just religion.

I know a guy that got into Pressure Cleaning and rather than try and promote his business, he worked 3 and sometimes 4 jobs to pay the bills. He was expecting the business to come to him.

When he did not make enough at these part time jobs he had, he would say that the lord will take care of him.

I know some people that only work part time, because if they had a full time job, they would not be able to volunteer at church as often. They whine that they have no money, but refuse to work more as it bites in to their volunteer time. But hey that is what they were raised to believe in.

[R. Williamson 14]

I am a Christian and I have faith that God will take care of my family and I. I also work very hard. I do not expect work to come to me. Anything worth having is worth working for.

How could someone live just to think at the end you will just be worm dirt.

God said he will give you what you need. You have to work for the extra's.

Robert Williamson

[One Call Power Wash 500]

Dont you all know, not to bring religion or politics into business.

But....since we are on this subject. You both should sit down and read the bible before you react to religion vs. creation. Both sides actually have their points. Some would say that the bible was written by humans, so it is just fiction and those that wrote the bible are only giving their opinion, this is true. Lets all understand that BC means before Christ. The bible also says that God created earth in 7 days in which he did. Is it so that maybe, just maybe, God put Dinosaurs on this earth first to make sure that it would be habitable. How many pictures did you see when you were a child where Cave Men were fighting off Dinosaurs ?

I just say this, think about it. Look above you on a clear evening and look at the stars. Look above you on a clear evening and look at the moon.

Take a ride away from all the hustle and bustle and head to the country, maybe the mountains. Take a look around. I dont think a single cell created all this beauty.

God is there and he watches over all of us. It is his will in which our lives will follow. I have questioned him in the past and still on occassion question some of the things in this world that just dont seem right, but remember, he has a plan for all of us. Just believe and have faith and you will find the truth in the end.

It does not cost anything to live right and live by faith.

Just my 4 cents.

[Rick G 14]

My opinion on creation v. evolution is this.

I believe we where created by God. God is not for mankind to define for anyone other than himself or herself. Meaning, my God may not be your God but it is the same God.

I believe we have evolved from our point of Creation. Who is to know what form we where created in other than God? What if we were created in the form of some ape/human thing and have evolved from there?

I believe that God constructed this, and many other situations to FOSTER faith. The essence of faith is different to everyone, is it not? Does it really have a definition? (not Webster’s) And if it doesn’t really have one specific definition what can be supported by documents and science? Ask theses same scholars to bring scientific evidence backing up faith in- your wife not to cheat, your boat to get you home, your pressure cleaner to start, your teenager to do the right thing, the doctors to cure you or your loved ones illness, the medication to work on the disease. People may not have faith in the Lord but they still have faith. And with faith as a built in mechanism- THEN- when you are laying on the floor after having a heart attack, looking down the barrel of a gun, listing to the silence after the car crash, hearing the bombs drop around you, watching a love one go in for kemo, holding your newborn in your arms - THEN- those who have had faith in everything BUT the Lord, will find that jump to him all the easier.

Just my opinion.

I am curious how many will find this post offensive? I hope no one. I would certainly not want anyone to be offended by OPINIONS posted here. If you are offended please post and tell us why? The reason I say this is on a landscaping forum I visit they had a tread like this and the moderators where bombarded with complaints. Rick G

[squirtgun 122]

One Call and Rick G,

Great job guys!!!!I couldn't think of a way to type what you 2 have.Your words mirror my feelings exactly.

[R. Williamson 14]

I wish I had a way with words like you guy's.

I agree. Except the monkey part.

Robert

[RyanH 14]

I don't intend to get into a long, drawn-out discussion (unless that's what you guys want, 'cuz if so I could go on for quite some time!), but here is my $.02 + tax on the issue of creation.

The book of Genesis was NOT written in english. It was written in a language that, for all practical purposes, has been long forgotten. It has been translated through many different languages, has been influenced by popular culture over time (think of the influences the Roman empire had over things as simple as our calendar system), etc.

Genesis says the the universe and everything in it (not just earth) was created in 7 days. Evolution theory suggests that it happened over billions of years. I believe that there is a good mix of both. Why is it impossible that God did not create the universe through an evolving process? Humans mature over a a period of 9 months before being born. We see the slow changes of landscape and the motion of the galaxies. To believe that the "7 days" spoken of by Genesis literally means 7 24-hour periods is, in my opinion, absolutely false. I think that is says "days" because that is the best term that fits into our concept today. The original meaning of creation probably more closely meant a very long time comprised of 7 or so distinct periods. Competely discounting evolution is a stupid way of thinking. We see evolution everyday in every population. I think God set some things in motion many (solar) years ago. Many things are allowed to run through a natural course and are doing as they were designed and intended to. We are running through a course of free will. Our degree of faith and what we do with it is up to us.

My religion "requires" me to spread the word and not keep quiet about, so I will say it: I am a Christian.

That does not mean that I will take a beaten and translated version of the bible and spout blindly everything in it as if it is literal, because I do not think it is. I believe that the bible has many omissions and flaws in it due to the nature of its existance. Sure, the original script may have been either the word of God or the personal account of witnesses, but human beings have the psychological flaws of objectivity and interpretation, and those flaws have a way of making their way into our handiwork.

By definition, the only way we can believe in God is to have faith. If we could prove the existance of God, then it wouldn't require faith to believe in him. It is our faith that guides us to try and understand what God wants of us. When we die, presumably we will know whether or not we were "right."

"It is easy to prove the existance of anything.....it is absolutely impossible to disprove the existance of anything. If you can't find it, it just means you aren't looking hard enough or in the right place." (is it bad karma to quote onesself???)

Ryan H.

[Dale 16]

I think all religions start out with the same purpose ...to help create good people..from there it usually goes off into space after a hundred years or so and that seems to be the problem with faith.To support your own interpretion of your religion..it becomes easy to believe your own bias..and the convoluted reasonings soon reach the level of absurd stories..at that point it could be argued that religion is the acceptable face of mental illness...in what other venue could you talk about magical beings , talking bushes, bringing dead people back to life, etc.. without people backing away from you?...but I still think that its better to have a "spiritual" element to life...hopefully one based in fact.

[John T 744]

This post I started was just to have a lively debate on an extremely lively topic. If it happens to get out of control then Beth should close it but untill then lets see how some of us think so we can get to know each other better.

I'll aways give most religions this that it gives people a common belief and also gives people hope where they might not have it anywhere else in life. That is the plus. Also it can give them a Healthy and happy life style because of the Moral system that religion can install.

The negative is that religion is the number one reason why people kill in the history of mankind. I'm sure Mohammed, Jesus and other religious leaders never had this in mind when they started there religions. Also us in the Catholic religion are taught that Heaven is the greatest place yet I know of no one rushing off to get there. Another thing is that you always hear that God has this great plan yet when a 4 yr old dies how can anyone justify that this is part of his plan???

Some religions won't even let modern cures like a life saving blood transfusion be performed on the love one because it violates there religious belief. Where is the logic to this??

There are soooo many loose ends in religion that most can not answer with facts and in most cases in life logical people like myself want the FACTS.

Does this make me a bad person?? I don't think so because I treat every one fairly. I wish Religions could treat other Religions as fairly so they can knock off all the blood shed going on. Just look at the Middle East where the never ending war is going on for probably at least a 1000 yrs and will probably go for a 1000 more untill someone that all sides can respect will find a way to stop the nonsense.

[Paul B. 523]

This is obviously a very complex subject and has been argued for many thousands of years in one form or another. People have spent lifetimes studying religion and creation but if you only study one side, it is much harder to believe or even understand the other side.

Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in and have the same GOD, with Christians knowing that the way to GOD is thru Christ. Can so many millions of people be wrong about there being a GOD and creator?

There are a lot of historical facts supporting creation. The birth, life and death of Christ, with over a hundred matching facts were prophesized in writing long before it happened. Were Jews not the first Christians? OK so not all Jews believe Christ was here already, but they believe in Christ and the same GOD. The disagreement is in the timing.

Why is it easier for people to believe that everything was created by accident rather than a planned creation? Could such a thing as a human being, with thought and a perfect machine for a body have accidentally evolved from a single cell. Science can not prove it. However, it does say in the Bible that many scientists will have their theories disproven.

Didn't Charles Darwin became a Christian before his death?

As with anything else out there, the more you study the subject of creation, the easier it becomes to understand it and believe in it.

Some people are lucky and have blind faith, others have to be led to the water while some can not see the water even when they are in it. Unfortunately having faith is not a given, but having a choice is.

By studying different religions, it becomes easier to see how most are tied together with the same GOD. All deviations are created by man not by different GODs.

[Lou Beach 14]

Very good post Ryan, you have done some deep thinking. I tend to agree with you but of course not totally.

God is a very personal concept to each individual. I am for finding your own path to your own God as you understand him/her/it, be that through organized religion or through your own independant path of discovery.

Organized religion is easiest, because you basically adopt the tenent's already established for you. The path of self discovery is more difficult because the guideposts are not there for you and you must find your own independant way. IMHO both work.

The only thing I don't like is when someone insists that there way is the only way. That leaves me steaming.

[Paul B. 523]

John,

The reason catholics don't rush off to heaven is because they are told that suicide is a sin, with implications of diversion from heaven.

There is a difference between Muhammed and Christ.

Muhammed was a prophet and Christ is a GOD and the son of GOD.

The death of a body is hard for most people to understand and justify, especially if it's a child. However, if the soul lives for ever, then a 100 years of someones life on earth is only like the blinking of an eye. There is a lesson in everything we experience (even in a child's death). The BIG questions are: What do we do during that 100 years on earth? How many of the 10 commandments can we master in 100 years?

Remember physics: We can NOT create or destroy matter - we can only rearrange it.

There were many prophets that were given directions to pass the word and it became easier to believe when many people from different parts of the world told the same BASIC story. Especially if they have not had contact with each other.

That's pretty much what journalists do to factualize their writing - the more people that tell the same story, the more factual the story becomes. Obviously two people standing on opposite sides of the event will have some different perspectives.

There are a lot of life and living basics in the Bible.

How can we begin to understand the most complex parts of life and after-earth-life when we had to be told not to deffacate or urinate where we eat and sleep. The stuff can kill you.

Thousands of years later... some people still don't understand that *** between humans and animals is not healthy - and that's been scientifically proven. And yet some persist!

We want justification for life and after-life, however, we can not keep from murdering, telling lies, stealing and breaking seven other basic laws of GOD.

And yet we persist!

[Dale 16]

I think alot of unresolvable issues arise because of the natural tendency of people to want everthing in a box..once and for all settled...its has to be "this" or "that" when in reality nothing is ever that fixed..life is in constant change..who can deny this?? Like Paul said."some can not see the water even when they're in it." Maybe the answer to where all this came from is neither evolution or creation..there's holes in both. It could be the origins of all this is based in the machanics of some process we won't even discover for another 1000 yrs....and if and when we do discover it...so what?..life is what life is and hopefully we've spent it learning to be good people and respect and help each other...

Can millions of people be wrong about something??.I hope so..millions of people swear that rap music is REALLY GOOD music. and I swear it sucks. lol.

[The Rob 14]

Dale,

Is Rap even music? Just because hate and vulgarity is put together with some musical instruments does not make it music!

Just my 2 cents.

Robert

[Littlefield 65]

Hebrews 11:1 states "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

Bearing that in mind, we should be able to contrast the realities of creation vs. evolution, and get some sort of factual basis for our faith.

Perhaps the easiest place to start with the evoutionary theory comes with the beginning of the universe. Many people do not realize how insignificant our solar system is in the universe. The Milky Way galaxy contains over 100 billion stars, and is only one of over 50 billion galaxies in the known universe.

The principle element of the universe is hydrogen. Commenting on this fact as it pertains to creation, Sir Fred Hoyle explained in "The Nature of the Universe", "To avoid the issue of creation it would be necessary for all the material of the Universe to be infinately old, and this it cannot be... Hydrogen is being steadily converted into helium and other elements...How comes it then that the Universe consists almost entirely of hydrogen? If matter were infinitely old this would be quite impossible. So we see that the Universe being what it is, the creation issue simply cannot be dodged."

The fact, then, that the most of the universe is comprised of hydrogen, demands a beginning point. Using the scientists principle of cause and effect, what could have "caused" a beginning, when there was in fact no matter present at one time? Only a Source of great energy, as Einstein helped us to realize, as his theorizing proved that since matter could be converted to energy, energy could also be converted to matter, given enough of it.

Isaiah 40:26 "Raise you eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom He calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, He also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing."

By the way, it is interesting to note the many comments about the bible being perverted by human translation, interpretation and the like. Having done some serious research into this matter I would like to offer that there is abundant factual data the text of the Bible now remains virtually unchanged from the original writings, you just have to be willing to look, and accept that you won't be able to pick and choose what you want, based on the idea that the Book is somehow "flawed".

[John T 744]

All extremely intellegent points. Who said Powerwashers weren't smart.:)

The bible was written by Humans I think we can all agree to that. Back when the Bible was being put together people lived on Legends. Stories were told where guys like Abraham lived to 700+ yrs. Moses needed to cross the sea so he parted it. Noah needed to build an arc because the rains were coming and he needed to save every animal that lived on the earth so he took 2 of each. The stories are abundent in the "Great Book" to the point were the Bible could be considered Fiction that is based on some Fact. Kind of like what Movies do today when they want to tell a "True Story" but add fiction to it so it sells. I'm sure the "Jessica Lynch" story from Iraq will be along these lines when they make a movie about her if they haven't already.

The Bible (Just my Opinion) is based on Sensationalism which draws a large group of people because we as Humans love "Sensationalism".

The reason why You don't see a Jesus Christ Today even though every few years you here he may show his face somewhere is because today Fact and Fiction is much easier to seperate because we have advanced so much in the Human race. Especially in America where you see Religion taking a back seat to Reality.

In poorer countries you will see Religion being supported blindly but in most of the advance countries such as here Reality is what people will support more. Example -modern medicine over spirtual cure.

[Dale 16]

this is a interesting thread... the thought that goes into the replies show how important and necessary spirituality is to our human lives. Its seems that no matter what belief one has its always directed at be a better more hopeful and helpful person. I have friends who are Christians, Jews, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Pagan, a couple of Witches and an assortment of "never thought about it muches" and I'm a Buddhist and if we all dressed the same and couldn't talk, you couldn't tell the difference by the interactions in a group and I think this is the most important part. We ARE all basically the same as human beings..we respond to the same things...kindness, respect, encouragement, joy, sadness, loss,etc. ,we all honestly feel good when we can help someone...even at the end of a hard day if you see someone on the side of the road that needs help with a flat tire or something, after we've helped the get back on the road we feel good...energized even though it was more work. Contrary to the basis of some religious premises that people are fundamentaly bad and need saving..I think that people are fundamentaly good. The necessity to believe things have to be either "this" or "that"...if you're not "for" me you must be "against" me is where the problems start. Beliefs systems all have their books and scriptures and quotes..but I think that its important to remember that just because things are written somewhere and and a believer of whatever system quotes something to support the belief......that doesn't make the whole belief system true or accurate....and it doesn't have to..if following the belief creates a better person..THATS whats important

[ron p 500]

if you were never ever tought about religion.

Would you ever even think of it?

Through history people have prayed,sacraficed,murdered,been preudice,loved,hated,ignored,gotten greedy,molested,tourtured,mis-represented,and a ton of other thing's.

This is because it's not GOD. It's the people that try to represent him.

I believe in god. I dont believe in organised religion.

Organised religion is helpfull in keeping the world population down. With out it we would have world peace and would use up what little is left of the earth.

Ceaser killed about a million

Hitler killed about a million

Sadam took his share.

America has taken a good bite.[with the most destructive weapon known to man]

Gingus Kaun took about a million.

Slavery within the last 125 year's has taken out quite a few.

[still dose every day, by the way]

Spain took out a lot of Aztec's

People getting butchard every day for a lousy rock[diamond's]

Kid's starving, as we throw out food every day.

GOD IS COOL IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT SUCK.

ADAM AND EVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN A CONDOM.

I think i'll make a tee shirt with that on it and see how it sell's on ebay.

[Aaron Ochsner 14]

I just wanted to say one thing here, because if I said anymore, like many of you we would be here for weeks in discourse. I have had some amazing experiences in my life. Things that that I most easily can call divine supernatural occurances. I am not a religious person though, and never have been, only spiritual. I think somewhere along the line in the translation of language, the word religion was confused with regimen. Jesus was not teaching religion, he was teaching a regimen of how to be a good person in the eyes of the divine master. Every 70 years since buddha walked the earth, a messenger has come to teach people the righteous way. It in my opinion is all about being a good person.....Sadly enough a whole lot of people, look at other people to compare themselves, and determine if they are good. Seemingly it is inherent that we all have flaws, so why would humans look to other humans to gauge how good or bad they are? Nature surrounds us, and nature upholds the laws of the universe, nature is where we should look to gauge if we are good or bad people............All of this is of course my opinion. :)

Cheers,

aarOn

:yoda:

[RyanH 14]

Dale,

Now you are talking about a subject I have enjoyed researching for years!! Playing devil's advocate, I will say that there is a lot of thought against a "single" beginning to the universe. Stephen Hawking (one of the leading current advocates) suggests that there comes a time where the universe stops expanding as a result of a big "bang" and begins to collapse back upon itself as a result of gravity, essentially setting itself up for another big bang. This process happens over perhaps trillions of what we consider to be years (a little uncertain, however, since Einstein threw the whole issue of relativity and time incongruity into the mix!). The idea is that the universe can effectively be infinitely old, and it just keeps resetting itself. And every time around, new forms of life are created, new religions are found, and new wars are fought. Hydrogen is constantly consumed by stars to make heavier elements, but an ultimate implosion of the universe will supposedly shatter all matter into subatomic and elementary particles, so it is entirely possible that all matter can eventually end up hydrogen again.

As far as the bible remaining intact from its original text, that may very well be true. But someone had to first put pen to papyrus to record the stories, and it is these stories that can contain the flaws. And I still believe in the possibility of flaws in translation. A very simple example could be conversion from German to English: In German, people "carry" their clothes, but in English, people "wear" their clothes. And if you are "hot" in english, you are really "horny" in german. This little quirk got some HUGE laughs when I messed up a few years ago. :o

Again, just being devil's advocate. I still believe God made the cards, then the thing we call nature keeps shuffling them.

Ryan H.

[Scott Stone 604]

You knoe, I have kids, and I could do everything for them, and their lives would be perfect. Unfortunately, they don't learn anything. God could also do everything for us, but he still wants us to learn something. That is why He does not intervene when the Hitler's and the Pope's of the world get on an evil bent. Because of his love for us, he let's us make mistakes so that we can teach ourselves the right way.

The teachings of Christ also teach us the right way, as well as Buddha, Mohammed, Abraham ad infinitum... The problem is that as much as we have a resource of what the right way is, people still have weaknesses and don't follow the counsels that they are given.

As for the Bible being correct, it has been proven manifold times in a myriad of ways that the ancient priests that used to translate, and write the Bible that there have been changes made. I personally believe that some of them were intentional, and some weren't, but in the final outcome, changes were made. This could have something to do with confusion of religions. If you want to dispute this, I will point to the origianl apocrypha that contains 14 books that used to be in the Bible, that are no longer there, because someone decided that they "did not need to be in there."

As for the Evolution VS. Creation controversy, I agree that the Bible talks about seven days, but am convinced that there were seven creative periods. Since they were periods these periods could be an undefined length.

Just a few of my opinions, that I usuallly avoid sharing on this type of forum.

Scott Stone

[Dale 16]

Hi Ryan,

Boy are you right, translations can be the source of confusion that then become accepted fact and it seems odd when the translations are interpreted more accurately....the story of Eve and the apple...there were no apples there, the fruit was most likely a quince...animals were not kept in stables but kept in caves, so Jesus was most likely born in a cave....The Aramaic (sp.)? word for virgin simply meant a young woman and not a virgin in the sense we think....and there are numerous examples of these that end up painting a picture that is idealized more than it is accurate, and these become comforting to us and we resist accepting any other story...I think not only all religions are like this ( and Buddhism is certainly no exception)..but history too, it all depends on your perspective..the story of settling this country is completely different from the Indians perspective that it is from the history books etc. It seems like it may be a better idea to work through this life not believing stories but only believing those things that you've learned to be true thru direct experience. (not talking about complicated issues of science or physics but just every day human life)....when you learn thru direct experience those things that are positive and help people and yourself..adopt those things into your life..and when you learn thru direct experience those thing that are harmful to others and yourself..give those up. A very simple path.

[Paul B. 523]

I'll grant that there are translation issues, but they are not as large as some assume it to be.

I agree that there are major differences in languages and some languages have no words that directly translate, however, translations have been and are continually studied by large groups of language and religious scholars not by a single individual, making translation errors not impossible, but less likely. Keep in mind that a lot of original documents exist to study which makes it less of a word of mouth communication process. The Dead Sea scrolls for example, confirm a lot of the papers published earlier.

If for example, you read the 3 page "Preface" to the "New International Version" of the "Holy Bible", you will find information on how over 100 scholars of many denomination and languages worked direct from Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic texts over 5 years to assure correctness of translation to English. The translations were reviewed 3 times by groups and some minor changes were made even after the 1st publication on 1973. Areas where language is fuzzy are marked with footnotes to highlight it for the reader.

I believe (as I have learned over the years) the items left out of the Bible were because either they did not add significance or were contrary to what was confirmed by many. The important and key focus should be that nothing of significance was subtracted.

I also believe that by studying, (in most cases) the differences between what are literal vs. figurative can be clarified. Studying and reading the Bible many times also helps in the understand of it. Kind of like when you watch a movie and say, "I never saw that before", or "now I understand the joke".

Someone mentioned the translation of "virgin" (virgin meaning untouched). Mary may not have been a virgin since she was a married woman and Christ did have a brother and possible other siblings, but rather the word "virgin" referring to the conception in which case it would mean that Mary conceived without contact. Hence the tag of "immaculate conception".

Also, we must not be distracted from the key points being conveyed by all the side stories, but rather focus on how the side stories strengthen the basic and KEY messages.

In context and in defense of organized religion I must emphasize the main reason for organization is the strength in numbers as it relates to learning, prayer, and family.

An example would be if your home was on fire, would you want to fight the fire by yourself or would you have better results with an organized group. (I'm sure you can substitute other examples of advantages have over individuals, such as unions, organizations, etc.).

Since humans were given choice to decide, you have to also use common sense in distinguishing differences between good and bad (such as recognizing cults and bad groups or organizations).

As for science, ...you can point to all kinds of examples of mistakes and areas where people were mislead for many years. I'll note a couple of examples to amplify why science is no more reliable than the bible:

- Nutrition: they just recently turned the nutrition pyramid upside down saying they have made a mistake.

- Dinosaur: museums have been displaying the head of one with the body of a different type claiming they were from one for 40 years after discovering error. Few museums have still not corrected the error.

- Carbon dating: we have no way of knowing what our atmosphere was like over a 5000 years ago and how fast changes occured, We relied on present rates and interpelate to get to the numbers. You can read several articles on scientists disagreeing on carbondating and dicrepancies of 50% to 100%.

- Speed of light: For how long have we said the there is nothing faster than the speed of light. Low and behold, last year scientist measured speeds in access of light.

Maybe in another 500 to 1000 years science will be out of the dark ages.

Everyone should seriously study and consider Christianity regardless of your mindset or final conclusions.

[Scott Stone 604]

Littlefield says that the Bible is correct as stands, Paul say that some "unimportant" things and things that records show are fallacious are removed.

The question is who is right? Sometimes, people could remove some things that they think is not important, yet for people of another religious persuasion it is really important. Who gets to decide? Have you ever seen a Jehovahs Witness bible? Not meaning to pick on them, but it is an excellent example. They claim it was translated from the original Latin and Hebrew texts, yet it is their religions policy not to give credit to people that do that kind of work for the "church." That means that we cannot even be certain that the Bible that they have translated themselves was correctly translated, because we do not know the qualifications of the scholars that did it. If you review it further, there actually missing passages that someone thought were not important enough to include in their translation. Some of the excluded verses contradict their religion, and some are verses, that if put in a context with the whole, give additional meaning.

It is the same with any translation of the bible. Not only can translations be different for the same item, but an individuals translation can be different as well.

Another reason that I do not think that every word in the Bible was perfect, The Gutenberg press was invented in the 1400's. Before that the only Bibles that were out there were hand written by Monks in an Monastery somewhere. There were various iterations, according to which Monk did the transcript. Then take into account additional things, like a particular writing style, and that could throw off any future additions of the Bible.

Then throw in additional problems, such as the problems of translating from one language to another. I have read the Bible in two languages, and compared and contrasted them while reading. Interestingly, the translation in French was based off the King James version of the Bible, which was the English Bible that I was using, and the Douai Bible. Interestingly enough, just in a direct translation, there were many discrepancies in the translation, that I would scratch my head in wonder about.

Do not get me wrong, the Bible is the word of God, but some of the translations could really use some work.

Now organized religion, this my opinion only.

Those that say that they do not believe in Organized religion are looking for the easy way out. They say that Christ never taught about an organized religion. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Well, if you believe the Bible (and its' translation;) ;) ) There are many instances that suggest Christ organized a religion while he was in a mortal existence.

1. He had apostles, or a leadership structure

2. He had public meetings, to preach to people, two that come immediately to mind are the fishes and loaves stories.

3. Later, in the Bible it tells that he gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers, which is obviously a teaching and leadership structure.

As always, these are my opinions. By using the Jehovahs Witnesses as an example, I did not mean to offend anyone. I personally believe that everyone should have the right to worship however, whoever, or whatever they want. Just let me do the same.

Scott Stone

[Dale 16]

Hi Paul,

Excellent comments.....The human mind is amazing and we tend to "fit" information into it to support our way of thinking. Thats why its so important to start out right in teaching values to children at a young age..what they learn when they are very young determine how they will "fit" future information in, for the most part either good, positive and humanly moral or negitive and self-serving. The same information can give support to seemingly different beliefs,attitudes, or scientific theories for that matter. I think we subconsiously interpret things to prove ourselves right. You mentioned a point I brought up before about things not necessarily being true just because they're repeated and studied by "experts", my reference was more along the lines of quoted scriptures of whatever religion not necessarily being true just because they're strongly believed and because of that the studied information is made to "fit". Your reference was more in pointing out how science is often wrong when more information is allowed to be seen as valid even if it disproves the former theory. I agree science isn't exempt from the tendency to "fit" information in. But if its wise to doubt one..its wise to doubt the other. Thats how we learn, but we only learn when the possibility of accepting that former beliefs or thoughts need to be occasionally reviewed...not that they were "wrong" just maybe not fully accurate..exists .

I have to agree the science doesn't have all the answers, try as they will they throw up their hands when trying to explain what consciousness actually is...they can explain the process of nerve pathways, stimulation, electro chemicals etc. but cannot say what consciousness is or why it exists.