Infraction System has been Disabled

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

After a year of using what we thought would be a decent monitoring system for user behavior, we have decided to disable the Infractions System. This does not mean we are not going to enforce the rules, we are, it just means we will not use the system to track those we have to contact or deal with.

Beth

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Hats off to dat, I made statements about that when it started.

I'm glad to see it happen. It just causes to many hard feeling amosgt the community.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hard feelings were never the intention. It was a simple matter of wanting a system that was automated, and tracked things. (time saver with a history) But, sometimes human intervention and judgment are better as we have found. Not one of the better ideas we have implemented among some pretty good ones, but then we are all bound to have a stinker now and then.

Life goes on, and the forums continue to grow. :)

Beth

[newlook 265]

I was neither pro or con of the system.

[PressurePros 248]

Hard feelings were never the intention. It was a simple matter of wanting a system that was automated, and tracked things. (time saver with a history) But, sometimes human intervention and judgment are better as we have found. Not one of the better ideas we have implemented among some pretty good ones, but then we are all bound to have a stinker now and then.

Life goes on, and the forums continue to grow. :)

Beth

A tiny foul contrary to popular belief. Good job for moving on and dropping this subjective system of penalty. You know whom is a trouble maker and whom has strong opinions. The two are different. Bob's board gives you guy's a good model of self governing, non-owner participation. It can work. As soon as you give a moderator with limited understanding of personalities and/or start to interpret friendly (or maybe not so friendly) debate as something to be quieted, the system becomes perceived as Gestapo. Fight personal attack with superior refrain from rebuttal and you will get much farther in the mind of the intelligent. We know who is a jerk and who isn't.

I was infracted for a statement that I thought was valid. My instinct was to preserve my right to free speech at any cost and I choked down a public retort for the sense of maturity and professionalism. The one thing that kept me on this board was a single pm.. I had made a post about a certain product and Beth sent me a message saying she had received some grief about it. She gave me the option of changing my wording. That meant much to me and while I still believed in what I wrote, I was inclined to understand her viewpoint and also understood that I could be affecting her ability to earn.. Post changed. Had I been infracted for that, I would have deleted TGS from my favorites list and not returned.

BNR, its perfectly acceptable to pm a poster and share your viewpoint as to why you think that person should perhaps think about what they wrote. Have the discussion out of public view. I think you may be surprised that we all get emotional and write words a little over the top but after review can govern our words.

I speak for myself.. Let me know when I do cross lines.. I am a person passionate about my viewpoints but I am also open minded enough to be nudged when I cross the line after posting something controversial, but please.. Let me decide that.

I'm with Jeff (JL) on this topic. This board has allowed me to network and met some people that I highly respect as freinds and business people. I'm not ready to throw TGS to the dogs because I didn't agree with the way certain things transpired.

[John T 744]

A tiny foul contrary to popular belief. Good job for moving on and dropping this subjective system of penalty. You know whom is a trouble maker and whom has strong opinions. The two are different. Bob's board gives you guy's a good model of self governing, non-owner participation. It can work. As soon as you give a moderator with limited understanding of personalities and/or start to interpret friendly (or maybe not so friendly) debate as something to be quieted, the system becomes perceived as Gestapo. Fight personal attack with superior refrain from rebuttal and you will get much farther in the mind of the intelligent. We know who is a jerk and who isn't.

I was infracted for a statement that I thought was valid. My instinct was to preserve my right to free speech at any cost and I choked down a public retort for the sense of maturity and professionalism. The one thing that kept me on this board was a single pm.. I had made a post about a certain product and Beth sent me a message saying she had received some grief about it. She gave me the option of changing my wording. That meant much to me and while I still believed in what I wrote, I was inclined to understand her viewpoint and also understood that I could be affecting her ability to earn.. Post changed. Had I been infracted for that, I would have deleted TGS from my favorites list and not returned.

BNR, its perfectly acceptable to pm a poster and share your viewpoint as to why you think that person should perhaps think about what they wrote. Have the discussion out of public view. I think you may be surprised that we all get emotional and write words a little over the top but after review can govern our words.

I speak for myself.. Let me know when I do cross lines.. I am a person passionate about my viewpoints but I am also open minded enough to be nudged when I cross the line after posting something controversial, but please.. Let me decide that.

I'm with Jeff (JL) on this topic. This board has allowed me to network and met some people that I highly respect as freinds and business people. I'm not ready to throw TGS to the dogs because I didn't agree with the way certain things transpired.

Ken,

As always another good post. I never infracted anyone and like alot of things in life the only way to know what works and what doesn't is to sometimes just go for it and see what happens. Thats what was tried here IMHO and even though it was a noble Idea the reality of it was that it didn't work as well as it was intended to do.

I like PT bb alot but I'm still more confortable with a moderator system just to keep the engine running a little more smoothly. Its just an opinion from what I have seen over the years.

What I always liked best about TGS is the ability of the Admin to keep this bb current and fresh. Its a Powerwashing information Highway that is well taken care of and that is a reflection of the leaders and the members that are here. Along the way there are changes that take place and in some cases they might not have been the best of changes but at least they are tried and true. Thru the trial and tribulations they are tweaked and tweaked again such as this. The beauty of an ever evolving bulletin board such as TGS. There is no definitive answer but the effort that goes into the search for the answer is always here.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

A tiny foul contrary to popular belief. Good job for moving on and dropping this subjective system of penalty. You know whom is a trouble maker and whom has strong opinions. The two are different. Bob's board gives you guy's a good model of self governing, non-owner participation. It can work. As soon as you give a moderator with limited understanding of personalities and/or start to interpret friendly (or maybe not so friendly) debate as something to be quieted, the system becomes perceived as Gestapo. Fight personal attack with superior refrain from rebuttal and you will get much farther in the mind of the intelligent. We know who is a jerk and who isn't

The self governing is a time bomb. *** was the same way long ago. We have no interest in even making money with it. Bobs forum is new, the idea is not. many bbs have come and gone.

These are his customers, wait until one good customers ticks another off. He feels Bob should have said or did something. Bob doesnt, the customer buys from Delco, sunbrite , paul and any other Dist.

Beth, I recall you had a distributorship? I recall people having issues, you tried to be fair and often people need to resolve there own problems. teh stupid thing is it had nothing to do with your service.

I wish Bob and pressure tech well, I post on the BBS because its a nice place. I sure hope what i have said doesnt happen. I have stayed away from thread over there that are useless. I will continue to do so.

Ken these are just my opionions and i may be wrong and you may think your right. Only time will tell.........

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I like PT bb alot but I'm still more confortable with a moderator system just to keep the engine running a little more smoothly. Its just an opinion from what I have seen over the years

Jon, come on.... tell the truth. you candy coating it, I think you knwo from experience and time this self moderation will not work.

[PressurePros 248]

I hear what you are saying, Ron. I think I should rephrase. I think Bob would edit something that was outright nasty to another person. I guess it still is subjective, even on Bob's board as he has ultimate decision power but I think one would really have to step over the line. Hell, he let Heart Wobden of W-wash run a tirade without banning or editing. Bob has stonger will than I in that respect.

You have had a board for a long time, Ron, so I respect that you have seen much more than I have. You have seen much more in this business period. I lread what you type and listen to what you say during conversation.. doesn't mean I agre with all of it, but I do take your experience and viewpoint into consideration. Here is my experience..I have a message board on my RAD website for consumers. There have been some posts I would have loved to delete threads that may have looked R-A-D look bad. I keep them on there, address what I can and move on. The first time I ever deleted a post was when I had facts that someone was a) promoting other products and b) lying about their claims. I asked that person to refrain from that but did not delete the post until that poster asked me to. He self governed and realized he was out of line.

I think self moderation can work as long as signatures are required. If I cry and complain about something in a post, my signature is right there. Next time someone searches for Ken Fenner or PressurePros, up it comes. Who looks like the a** then? I was actually opposed to TGS going private because I was being selfish. I wanted the Google link backs. With much after-thought, this is the only forum that now provides me a place to vent, discuss sales etc and never have to worry about the public hitting my posts with a direct link.

I'm not opposed to moderation nor would I stop visitng the boards that do unless it gets excessive or driven by sponsors. You had a recent experience with that happening. It was called a mistake but trust me, noone in the business who visits these boards thinks it was a mistake. A certain supplier distributing monetary compensation to *** (directly or indirectly) had an issue with a post and away it went.

I don't want you to think this is an attack on you personally, Ron.. I have enjoyed our chats and I find you enagaging and full of ideas and concepts that could further the industry. But, this was another form of subjective censorship and that gets a personal foul for a board that is claimed to be non-sponsored.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Its funny people personally attack *** or TGS. They think they are attacking Ron ********** or Beth Borrego. In reality they are attacking all, and then people wonder why did they all gang up on me like that? DUH

TGS is by far regardless of my ideas of how it should be run the best darn source online today. I have had my fights with Beth and looking back how silly they are.

We should all come together; great things can happen if we did. People need to realize I support the industry not for some ultimate agenda. I have my own and it’s simple for me to make my business larger and make more US dollars. (Yes I network with people and hire them) I did that when I was on PWN. I do it on all BBS, I don’t need *** to accomplish my agenda. I build relation with other and I would continue to do that regardless of TGS PTS or Delco.

I help others and I do it with out concern. Most here do not understand that all tradesmen work together in other industries. I belong to the grocery association and hospitality industry. These people partner up to find vendors and get better pricing. They share ideas and solve problems. They even send each other customers they cannot help.

Likewise Ken, please take nothing hear personal either. The sponsor paid you if you tried to win the gift. Ron ********** has never received a penny or gift of any kind.

The folks standing in line to donate to the industry are friends of the industry. These vendors understand *** and they appreciate the source. Ken I really wish you understood it. You have been informed incorrectly in sounds about and who I’ am. I appreciate the respect you have given me, don’t think I have not noticed. I hope you realize it’s mutual. I don’t always agree but that doesn’t mean I don’t respect.

Something happened recently and I wish you could read the mod log on ***. I made a comment about the Letter to the PWNA. You might be surprised at what I said. Anyway I said these same thing years ago and I tired of saying it. This was the correct and professional approach. This is the approach that should have been taken Long before EA even.

EA is a friend of mine and don’t get me wrong will always be a friend. I’m certain he would rather see a letter like Matt’s then the POOP that people come up with on these BBS.

Yes I said POOP, this is what I’m sick of. I have no use for BBS that want to display POOP. If I want entertainment I go to the movies or play with my children. ( possibly grandchildren)

My passion has been renewed for my business like no other. My youngest is in high school on the right track and I’m going to take her to the next level. Those who want to come for the ride are welcome and those who want to talk blue in the face about something that doesn’t matter can keep fighting the battle. I’m going right by them.

Ken My operation is not that large, yeah I’m not one man. I have a dream that someday I will make a larger impact on the places I choose to do business. The path is being laid as we speak; some hear know about it and other gossip about it.

WOW, I just wanted to say again. I told that the infraction thing was no good………….

Call me sometime Ken, Love to talk. Ken you can call me AM PM anytime. I’m literally 24 hours Sunday evening thru Friday at 1pm.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I'm not opposed to moderation nor would I stop visitng the boards that do unless it gets excessive or driven by sponsors. You had a recent experience with that happening. It was called a mistake but trust me, noone in the business who visits these boards thinks it was a mistake. A certain supplier distributing monetary compensation to *** (directly or indirectly) had an issue with a post and away it went.

On this note if anyone had a real problem with any supplier they could tell us about it professionally. that poster if he wanted to vent lets us hear it. Like wise whom ever the the supplier is *** has a responsibilty to anyone to seek the truth. Lies cannot be placed on these forums. litigation is something i'm not interested in. I will not allow anyone to be slandered. nor would any inteligent person. This is the reason *** doesnt have sponsors.

I do have to tell you I have not ever heard anyone speak poorly about these gents. ( also friends of mine)

Ken, just one more thing. *** is not for life...*** is about directing you to the best source. TGS PTS PWN PWNA ATP BOMA BNI ITA ALY IYET or your phone number.

A certain supplier distributing monetary compensation to *** (directly or indirectly) had an issue with a post and away it went.

This i had nothing to do with, I support the decesion. I hope the poster will remain a freind. if not his loss, not mine. He made a mistake, when i make them i admit them. Drawing lines in the sand saying i wont go here or there only effects one person, you---------Other will see his info. @ PTS.

[Jeff 232]

We all should come together. It will better our industry for sure

Ron good post, I hope everyone reads it. We have to bring this industry together and learn from each other. I don't ever comment on the PWNA, because I never really dealt with them. These boards someday could produce another pwna type association. One that is stong, fair and better the industry, but the only way WE ALL can produce a great association is bringing all professionals together. It doesnt have to be all lovey dovey, but professional would help. This is why I defended TGS on other BBs, not because I'm a kiss as* for BnR, its because this is a great source and I think its a place to learn

I like to contribute with MANY of my post, not all, because I get rapped up it stupid political discussions and I am going to curb that. But I do like to contribute and I think most do. I think everybody should stand back and LOOK, look at what we all have here, ***, PT State, TGS and the other BB's are really one of the bast things that have happened to this industry and we should try to make them grow and come together. None of us are perfect and none of these BBs are either. We may or may not ever see an pwna type association that is great, but we can have great BBs that better our industry.

I love PWing biz and I love these BB's

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thank you Ron. Well put, and BRAVO! I'm glad you said it. Moderation has worked and does work, when done thoughtfully. This can be frustrating, but as we have seen clearly it is better than the infraction system. Self moderations, well, all I'll say is look at TCN. There is a group and they run like a pack of wild dogs. Then look at the tone on PTS. Now just because a group of people seem to agree that it is ok to get their rocks off on a couple members or to bash other BBS's, doesn't make it so. This unprofessional behavior IS seen by ALL spiders and engines and is indexed!! So while you think 'hey I can go trash so and so on Bob's BBS, no one will see it' you are WRONG. As the site grows and the content gets better ranking, all that same tripe you didn't want to see on a popular board like TGS or *** because it makes you too visible, will now be in full view on your secret happy hiding place. Those forums are OPEN. I have already seen threads on both Google and Yahoo from PTS that were ugly in the engines.

Yes, infractions are gone here, but we will not become an unprofessional BBS. It's not who we are, or who we have ever tried to be. When we opened years ago we said then we want to be the most professional BBS with the best content. Lofty goals, but this is our dream. If you break rules you will be dealt with here like you were before the infraction system.

This and other BBS's like ***, are for ALL the members. Striking out at an admin, moderator or other member is harmful to ALL. Many people choose not to post because of the selfish behavior of those who feel they have a right to spew negative, nasty, vile comments towards others without consideration. Some users are afraid of these posters and see them as bullies. Some even contact us and tell us they are afraid to post! I'm sure Ron has heard that too over the years. So the next time you think you are being righteous, and are all wrapped up in your free speech and censorship place, try thinking about how harsh your words are and how they effect others.

Beth :cup:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I guess you can't please all of the people. A portion of this thread has already made it to another board full of disdain from the very start. No matter, it is how things are handled here that counts and what our members have looked to us for. A few may complain but it is the majority that we consider.

As per majority vote, we have closed a number of the popular forums and now discussions can take place in a more secure manner as the consensus has desired.

A more positive new feature has been added that allows users the distribution and collection of 'karma' in the form of frubals.

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/club-house/11618-all-about-frubals-what-world-frubal.html

We think it is a better way to communicate positively amongst each other and encourages professional interaction.

We understand fully that there may be some heated debates as the past has shown but we can all be mature enough to consider our words before clicking the "Post Quick Reply" or "Submit Reply" buttons.

This industry needs to show to not only ourselves but to the public at large that we can act professional, communicate professionally and above all be responsible for our actions. We need unity and cohesion. BBS's help.

Thank you Ron and Ken for your input and feedback. As always, sometimes we do not agree but you have shown it does not mean that we cannot get past those differences to arrive at a mutual solution. Jeff, you lefty righty political nonchalant (sarcasm, what a concept), you keep on being who you are and thank you for your contributions. They do not go unnoticed.

Carlos, you have been quite busy in your enterprise and we appreciate seeing you here. It is in our hopes that you and others continue to find value and interest here to benefit from in your businesses.

Rod!~

[Hotwaterwizard 33]

So does this mean my BarBQ picture can go back on? LOL

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

So does this mean my BarBQ picture can go back on? LOL

The problem with that pic in particular was the child in it. That is what we received so much feedback about. If it was cropped, I don't think there will be a problem.

Rod!~

[rholman 14]

ok i'm confused... what exactly has changed?...I haven't gotten in trouble here so i don't know the whole process. It just sounds like the rules are still the rules and you aren't going to track infractions with an automated system any longer. Is that the jist?

[newlook 265]

Pretty much it.....keep posting!!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hi Rick,

In the past I think we had more individual contact with the users when there was conflict. The infraction system was more automated and impersonal. It saved some time, but seemed to create other voids. So, we are back to what we used to do, which seemed to appeal to folks more.

Beth