AC super cedar

[bigchaz 157]

Can't attach a picture from my phone but the super cedar deck I just finished took 6 gallons on a 14*12...the fuzzies are bright yellow, floor is almost black, rails looks unstained even with 2 coats...looks nothing even close in color to cedar semi.

Am I missing something here? Wood was 3 yrs old never stained. Ill come back tomorrow to see it again but its already pretty dry and I'm thinking this is gonna need to be stripped and redone.

is there a different balance of oils in the super cedar than the semis? It drinks like a timber oil and handles nothing at all like the semi-trans.

Anyone have experiance with the super cedar?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The post-cca lumbers, Ca-B, ACQ etc.. etc... look a whole lot different in a shorter period of time than species lumber does. I have noticed that over the past few years.

Beth

[acegot 14]

The post-cca lumbers, Ca-B, ACQ etc.. etc... look a whole lot different in a shorter period of time than species lumber does. I have noticed that over the past few years.

Beth

All the more reason to seal with in the first year. Sounds like there may be alot more sanding needed for sure.

[plainpainter 217]

I am experimenting with brand new pressure treated - and if the results are as I suspect. I'll be selling cretowood type products for first tme applications. Its the only product that penetrates, imo. And if it seals the wood and prevents many of the problems associated with leaving ptp untreated - then it wiil allow the surface to age better for oil penetration.

Has anyone ever suspected the newer pressure treatments are actually caustic? I know of one treatment, don't know if it's widespread yet - but is basically wood saturated with sodium metasilicate. These newer type treatments are basically at 'war' with any oil based coating you put on them. That's why it's best to even let newer pressure treated to release as much of this stuff as possible - despite folks not liking the idea of ptp weathering a couple of years.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I am experimenting with brand new pressure treated - and if the results are as I suspect. I'll be selling cretowood type products for first tme applications. Its the only product that penetrates, imo. And if it seals the wood and prevents many of the problems associated with leaving ptp untreated - then it wiil allow the surface to age better for oil penetration.

Has anyone ever suspected the newer pressure treatments are actually caustic? I know of one treatment, don't know if it's widespread yet - but is basically wood saturated with sodium metasilicate. These newer type treatments are basically at 'war' with any oil based coating you put on them. That's why it's best to even let newer pressure treated to release as much of this stuff as possible - despite folks not liking the idea of ptp weathering a couple of years.

Do you have a link or online wood source to verify that? I am familiar with the newer treatments, but that is one I have not heard of. Or is it a component in one of the treatments? It would explain alot, that's for sure.

Beth

[PressurePros 249]

Ken,

Are you saying that there is "bad" or "inferior" pigment affecting the look of the stain?

Or that transoxides on some wood just does not look good?

Rick, I think it is a case of "too much of a good thing." Transoxides are the best for reflecting UV and are not as UV sacrificial as an earth pigment, but I have found that when a stain has too much of it, you get the results Charlie did. I have had the same thing happen with a sodium hydroxide strip, very slow methodical cleaning with 1000 psi, pH balance and defur. It wasn't the prep, it was the Wood Tux. The further I go in this niche of wood care, the more I realize that I don't care for the slight clarity and durability advantages of the transoxides. I don't get major color fade or shift from the product I use for at least two years. There is a slight opaqueness (not as hiding as the A/C) to the tone but I like it better.. so do customers. This is meant with no disrespect and is a matter of personal preference.. Pure parafinics also look oily and dirty to me.

As my volume gets higher and higher, we really need to get in and get out (ie adequate work that looks better than what 85% of the contractors out there can do). I totally appreciate and respect the perfection that makes for a killer restoration. I appreciate it and you guys would ooh and ahh over my pictures, but the end result is that high volume work (300,000 + s/f per year) does not support the pricing model that goes with it.

My bottom line is that Armstrong is an incredible VOC compliant stain. Top notch and worth the money for companies doing 50,000 s/f or less per season. One coat on a floor, from the pictures I have seen looks a little light but it is definitely as close as you can come to a one-coat product. I'll keep some on hand for when rain is in the afternoon forecast as it is very durable against a rainfall before full cure.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rick, I think it is a case of "too much of a good thing." Transoxides are the best for reflecting UV and are not as UV sacrificial as an earth pigment, but I have found that when a stain has too much of it, you get the results Charlie did. I have had the same thing happen with a sodium hydroxide strip, very slow methodical cleaning with 1000 psi, pH balance and defur. It wasn't the prep, it was the Wood Tux. The further I go in this niche of wood care, the more I realize that I don't care for the slight clarity and durability advantages of the transoxides. I don't get major color fade or shift from the product I use for at least two years. There is a slight opaqueness (not as hiding as the A/C) to the tone but I like it better.. so do customers. This is meant with no disrespect and is a matter of personal preference.. Pure parafinics also look oily and dirty to me.

As my volume gets higher and higher, we really need to get in and get out (ie adequate work that looks better than what 85% of the contractors out there can do). I totally appreciate and respect the perfection that makes for a killer restoration. I appreciate it and you guys would ooh and ahh over my pictures, but the end result is that high volume work (300,000 + s/f per year) does not support the pricing model that goes with it.

My bottom line is that Armstrong is an incredible VOC compliant stain. Top notch and worth the money for companies doing 50,000 s/f or less per season. One coat on a floor, from the pictures I have seen looks a little light but it is definitely as close as you can come to a one-coat product. I'll keep some on hand for when rain is in the afternoon forecast as it is very durable against a rainfall before full cure.

Then what are you using this year?

Beth

[RPetry 564]

... As my volume gets higher and higher, we really need to get in and get out (ie adequate work that looks better than what 85% of the contractors out there can do). I totally appreciate and respect the perfection that makes for a killer restoration. I appreciate it and you guys would ooh and ahh over my pictures, but the end result is that high volume work (300,000 + s/f per year) does not support the pricing model that goes with it. ...

Ken,

Terrific post. I think I understand exactly your sentiments. We do nowhere near that volume of exterior wood.

We have developed a niche market. Not always high end wood, but high end customers. At this stage in life, volume holds no interest, only business headaches. Been around that block a few times, and a "craft" operation is perfect. I'm getting old. Hah!

[PressurePros 249]

Then what are you using this year?

Beth

What I've used for the last couple of years. That product which will have to remain nameless (not Wood Tux, Wood Rich or any of the ESI offerings) or Scott will put a hit out on my life.

Scott you need to make some room over there in your inventory for a new product. Muahahahaha.

PS: I cannot pay more than $75 per pail delivered. :lildevil:

[PressurePros 249]

Ken,

Terrific post. I think I understand exactly your sentiments. We do nowhere near that volume of exterior wood.

We have developed a niche market. Not always high end wood, but high end customers. At this stage in life, volume holds no interest, only business headaches. Been around that block a few times, and a "craft" operation is perfect. I'm getting old. Hah!

I know you, Rick. You have the heart of a craftsman. Its in me too.

[bigchaz 157]

I think what I've realized is that I need to product to be forgiving which is why I used AC in the first place. The time and money involved to sand and defur every square inch of wood on every deck new or old doesn't make for a good business model for me. Sticking with the semi-trans I can know that its going to look the same on just about every deck I do.

When I get to a point where I have employees working unsupervised in the field, they shouldn't need to worry about darkening and pigments and strength of the pigment against uv degradation. No looking back and definitely no more of this me driving back the next day to make sure it dried right.

Go with the semi-trans in my opinion versus the super cedar. I'm sure the super cedar looks great on some decks but not sure pressure treated pine is the best wood to have a product with such a high amount of yellow. It applies very dark and dries too light for my taste. Regular cedar semi trans does the trick

Edited July 8, 2009 by bigchaz

[Scott Paul 164]

What I've used for the last couple of years. That product which will have to remain nameless (not Wood Tux, Wood Rich or any of the ESI offerings) or Scott will put a hit out on my life.

Scott you need to make some room over there in your inventory for a new product. Muahahahaha.

PS: I cannot pay more than $75 per pail delivered. :lildevil:

Hmm... A stain that costs only $75 delivered. Is that possible? Edited July 8, 2009 by Scott Paul

[Tonyg 14]

Go with the semi-trans in my opinion versus the super cedar. I'm sure the super cedar looks great on some decks but not sure pressure treated pine is the best wood to have a product with such a high amount of yellow. It applies very dark and dries too light for my taste. Regular cedar semi trans does the trick

I've used it on three decks - new, 5yr, and 15yr - all PTP. I liked it on 2 out of the 3. The one that I did not like was the oldest where I thought the yellows were a bit overpowering and the color variances with some dark boards was more than I liked, and these decks were sanded complete. It did look better when I went back to paint the house a few weeks later, and the HO loved it, but I still do not care for the way it looked. The "new" deck looks terrific and saw it last week or so at almost the 1yr mark and it still looks really good and was referred to as "golden oak" color by the neighbors.

I think there is a time and a place for the SC (I even tried to sell it on a new deck for this week) and I will keep it as a color option but be a bit more selective on what wood I will apply it on. I would not hesitate to use it on a new(er) deck.

[Tonyg 14]

Hmm... A stain that costs only $75 delivered. Thats possible![/QUOTE]

Wow Scott!

I will put my order in now and pass the word. What a terrific, wonderful, generous vendor that is sympathetic to our cause!

I'll start posting around the boards to let everyone know to drum up some business for ya

:lgkick:

[RPetry 564]

I know you, Rick. You have the heart of a craftsman. Its in me too.

Ken,

I only wish I had found this business fifteen or twenty years ago when I had the drive and energy to make a real go at it. Project consulting and then software development businesses got in the way.

Very happy to be doing wood restoration at this stage in life. Small scale suits me and our family situation just fine. And it is nice not to have the time demands and crazy 24 hr. on call schedules of past endeavors. I'm glad those days are over!

[RPetry 564]

Hmm... A stain that costs only $75 delivered. Is that possible?

And will it be VOC compliant nationwide in 2010? Changing horses in mid stream can be costly.

... I think there is a time and a place for the SC (I even tried to sell it on a new deck for this week) and I will keep it as a color option but be a bit more selective on what wood I will apply it on. I would not hesitate to use it on a new(er) deck.

Tony,

I think that PT deck looks terrific. How old was the wood in your pictures?

Do not know much about A-C stain, have only used it a few times. But if it has parafin oil in it, at least with Ready Seal, the final color does not "come out" for a week or 10 days after final application.

[Tonyg 14]

And will it be VOC compliant nationwide in 2010? Changing horses in mid stream can be costly.

Tony,

I think that PT deck looks terrific. How old was the wood in your pictures?

Do not know much about A-C stain, have only used it a few times. But if it has parafin oil in it, at least with Ready Seal, the final color does not "come out" for a week or 10 days after final application.

Actually thats the 15yr (atleast) that I really didn't care for. :cool:

[RPetry 564]

Actually thats the 15yr (atleast) that I really didn't care for. :cool:

Tony,

There is an old saying, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear". For 15 yr. old PT, real nice job.

[PressurePros 249]

And will it be VOC compliant nationwide in 2010? Changing horses in mid stream can be costly.

LOL, its not VOC compliant in 2009.. or for that matter 2006.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

LOL, its not VOC compliant in 2009.. or for that matter 2006.

WHAT isn't VOC compliant?

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

..please explain some numbers and such if ya get a chance on who is and isn't and what will result be?

[plainpainter 217]

Do you have a link or online wood source to verify that? I am familiar with the newer treatments, but that is one I have not heard of. Or is it a component in one of the treatments? It would explain alot, that's for sure.

Beth

Sodium silicate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New kind of Pressure Treated wood - Contractor Talk - Professional Construction and Remodeling Forum

Here you go Beth.

[plainpainter 217]

I think lots of us tend to over think all this wood care stuff. I dropped the ESI offerings because of unpredictable outcomes. No matter how nice some projects come out - you see one of your decks get infected and watch the mildew grow progressively under the surface and then completely take over - that was enough for me.

The A.C. product is very liquidy and requires two full drenching wet on wet coats for the horizontals - that's a drawback, it's more labor for quite an expensive product. But it looks beautiful.

Sometimes I wish I never found these boards......

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Hear what your claiming there Dan about AC. Do you think a two coat drench is true based on how other products act on the wood or a provable fact based on seeing what one coat looks like after it dries and settles in?. I tend to want to double wet coat as well but pretty sure I been told there really no need to do that. In fact the trying to keep an even wet rich look throughout a project seems futile due to the dual soaking in action/slight top coating(linseed) and but after it all dries and settles it all seems ok all on its own unlike other products that are more of a coating type nature....

[acegot 14]

Hear what your claiming there Dan about AC. Do you think a two coat drench is true based on how other products act on the wood or a provable fact based on seeing what one coat looks like after it dries and settles in?. I tend to want to double wet coat as well but pretty sure I been told there really no need to do that. In fact the trying to keep an even wet rich look throughout a project seems futile due to the dual soaking in action/slight top coating(linseed) and but after it all dries and settles it all seems ok all on its own unlike other products that are more of a coating type nature....

I did a deck 2weeks ago that applied a what I would say is a med. wet coat of Armstrong, came back the next day & applied another med. wet coat. Came back the next day & the deck looked the same as after the 1st day after I put on 1 med coat. I'm sticking with my 1 heavy wet coat applied with truck brush & backbrushed twice as I continue.

[acegot 14]

I think lots of us tend to over think all this wood care stuff. I dropped the ESI offerings because of unpredictable outcomes. No matter how nice some projects come out - you see one of your decks get infected and watch the mildew grow progressively under the surface and then completely take over - that was enough for me.

The A.C. product is very liquidy and requires two full drenching wet on wet coats for the horizontals - that's a drawback, it's more labor for quite an expensive product. But it looks beautiful.

Sometimes I wish I never found these boards......

Here is my take on this thread, We solved the issue of the Super Cedar being a toner & not a semi tran or solid. I would have made the same assumption.

The other issue I see is the application & volume of application of Armstrong. Many choose to apply 2 coats, that is great, & a personal choice. Excessive application can be acheived with this product with no ill effects (in most appications) except to the pocket book, re too much labor spent & too much spent on materials. TRUST ME, Ive been there way too many times.

Armstrong states a 2nd coat can be applied if the 1st coat absorbs in 20 minutes, But is not NECESSARY. Like I said I'm very guilty of this, I'm a quality freak.

SO anyway, It comes down to having FAITH in a high quality product/company (thats had the same formula for 9 years) & what they recommend. Sorry for the long post.

Edited July 9, 2009 by acegot
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