When to say "NO"!

[RPetry 564]

We have been getting some interesting jobs this year. Estimate for an ipe' wrap around porch and sm. cedar deck and pergola on another structure on the property done this past April.

Got a call late last week saying "Do it". Ok, but a catch. Please come out and give an estimate on cleaning and staining my cedar siding. See 1st picture.

Met with the owner, discussed things, and tried to convince the owner not to touch the cedar siding. The guy is a commercial real estate developer, had to go off to a meeting, so I had only 15 minutes with him.

Emphatically told him "No", do not touch this cedar. Its perfect as is.

This cedar is from an Amish barn in Pa., estimated to be between 60 and 80 years old. It is very old growth rough sawn cedar and still full of natural tannin. It may have been stained or even painted decades in the past, hard to tell now.

No ground contact, and the interior of the home is similar looking wood.

See the 2nd pic. Mesquite door, the wood is very old and imported from Mexico. Same wood is used on doors in the interior.

Asked me to do a test spot in a out of the way place. See the 3rd pic. Bleach and soap mix, dried with a hair dryer, and RS natural cedar and light brown applied. Came out black, but that is the cedar tannins, and will settle down to true color in a day or two.

Comments? My gut tells me to leave this wood as is, a cleaning and staining is not needed or warranted.

There is some work that you just want to say NO!

[RPetry 564]

Rick has found a way to make money using/selling Readyseal - kudos for him! What works for him works. ...

Daniel,

We make no money selling Ready Seal. We do make an acceptable profit staining exterior wood with Ready Seal.

Jon,

Shoot me an email of your shipping address. 2 gals. of RS med. red will be on its way. My address is in the signature lines.

Sorry, its too late and bed time. I'll look over your pics early tomorrow morning.

[JFife 14]

HA!! Do you really go to bed at 8pm??? Well, we know what Ben Franklin said about "Early to bed"....no wonder you are able to turn down work!!!:)

[JFife 14]

Rick has found a way to make money using/selling Readyseal - kudos for him! What works for him works. We all have to find our own path in the end, I couldn't make readyseal work. But then again from looking at Rick's work and looking at the readyseal website - it seems they have a more complete color collection - where as I am finding that A.C. needs constant custom mixing to get a good color - the 'stock' colors are just too restrictive.

Dan, I am certainly not bashing Rick or his use of RS. I assure you, I would never care enough about someone else's biz to go that far. I was just making a point as to the darkness of his samples and showing him a similar situation that I had.

FWIW, I agree with you about the RS color samples swatch. If I felt that their products would *consistently* look they way they do in the swatches, I'd be sold. But I can't handle inconsistent results. I am too much of a control freak.

Back to Rick's use of RS, I've certainly never/would never discourage him. I don't care what product he uses----I don't even care if he uses a good product or does what I consider to be a good job---so long as my pal Rick is well paid and happy!!

[John T 744]

1) Rick, I do want that Med. Red----sorry, just been busy and haven't got around to sending you an email. Thanks, and I'll get with you here soon.

2) Regarding test stain samples. Perhaps it is due to tannins, perhaps not. Attached are pics of 6yr old log siding stained with RS. This was my last job with RS, just too confusing of a product for me. The first two pics are samples of Med. Brown mixed 50/50 with Light Brown. And yes, these pics were taken several days after initial app. We waited and waited for color to "settle down", etc. so HO could see what final color would look like. We ended up going with Light Brown (3rd pic). This was what it looked like upon application. The 4th pic is after a few days. The LB color shifted. The MB did not. Now compare this MB pic to the one you just posted of that clear cedar decking. THIS is the type of thing that bothers me about RS. Final appearance is a total crapshoot. Anyways, I know the thread is about the barn. But your test spot pics reminded me of my final RS job 4yrs ago.

3) Strip and stain the guy's barn!! Why??? Because he wants you to!!!! Simple as that! If he is like me (and millions of others), he hates the faded gray look. Perhaps he could care less about preserving the historical value of gray wood....he's probably saying to himself, "IT'S JUST WOOD!!" Like someone else said, if this is what he wants, he's just going to find someone else that will do him a crappy job. So why not give him the service and quality he (and the home) deserves??

I agree with what Jon is saying.

Here is a picture of one of the houses we did this summer. We stained it with Cabots Natural Oil base stain.

[RPetry 564]

1) Rick, I do want that Med. Red----sorry, just been busy and haven't got around to sending you an email. Thanks, and I'll get with you here soon.

Jon,

Call or email me with your shipping address anytime.

2) Regarding test stain samples. Perhaps it is due to tannins, perhaps not. Attached are pics of 6yr old log siding stained with RS. This was my last job with RS, just too confusing of a product for me. The first two pics are samples of Med. Brown mixed 50/50 with Light Brown. And yes, these pics were taken several days after initial app. We waited and waited for color to "settle down", etc. so HO could see what final color would look like. We ended up going with Light Brown (3rd pic). This was what it looked like upon application. The 4th pic is after a few days. The LB color shifted. The MB did not. Now compare this MB pic to the one you just posted of that clear cedar decking. THIS is the type of thing that bothers me about RS. Final appearance is a total crapshoot. Anyways, I know the thread is about the barn. But your test spot pics reminded me of my final RS job 4yrs ago.

That is a dramatic change with the RS light brown. We do not generally do homes, I'm too old for ladders! But I agree that the RS "light" colors, specifically light brown and natural cedar, do cure out to a lighter color within a few days on deck jobs. But I have not experienced such a huge color shift as shown in your pics. Something due to pine logs?

I think, what may happen, is the lesser amount of pigment in the lighter RS colors initially lays on top of the wood immediately on application, but slowly gets into the substrate, carried by the paraffin oil, over time. Less pigment on the surface, lighter color. This might be more pronounced in vertical wood, ie: your house example, more so than horizontal wood such as decks, due to simple Newtonian gravity, ie: the pigment lays on the surface longer. But this is mere speculation.

I do know that if my customer was expecting pic #3 finish color, and wound up with the much lighter pic #4 color, I'd been in deep trouble as the contractor.

3) Strip and stain the guy's barn!! Why??? Because he wants you to!!!! Simple as that! If he is like me (and millions of others), he hates the faded gray look. Perhaps he could care less about preserving the historical value of gray wood....he's probably saying to himself, "IT'S JUST WOOD!!" Like someone else said, if this is what he wants, he's just going to find someone else that will do him a crappy job. So why not give him the service and quality he (and the home) deserves??

This situation is not quite that straightforward. First, this is a new house, just built within the past year. The owner paid a hefty premium for this old growth barn cedar, as far as I know, mostly for the current look of the aged wood. Same with the mesquite. Look at that outside door in one of my pics earlier in this thread. That ancient mesquite is Lord knows, how many years old, and was imported from Mexico. The interior of the house is completed, with this "aged" wood look prevalent throughout.

The problem is this. This barn cedar was stored on site in a trailer. From what I can determine, this trailer probably leaked. The carpenters routed each piece to T&G, and vertically sheathed the outside walls with this great looking cedar. Unfortunately, it is my guess that the cedar was not dry, and was installed as wet wood.

Check the picture below. This closeup shows the T&G pulled apart due to shrinking and plank warping as the cedar dried out. One other clue is that this shrinkage is most noticeable on the "sunny side" face of the home.

The real question and mystery is this. Will "re-moisturizing" this cedar with enough paraffin oil help to "flatten", or at least stop any further shrinkage. Not sure if the oil can "re-swell" the cedar, but am confident it will help slow down or alleviate further shrinkage and warping.

The really tough question is what will the wood finish look like? Remember, this guy paid handsomely for this desired "aged" look.

HA!! Do you really go to bed at 8pm??? Well, we know what Ben Franklin said about "Early to bed"....no wonder you are able to turn down work!!!

Sometimes 9:00 or even 9:30 PM! If old Ben was right, it would be easy getting rich, and everyone would be in bed by sunset!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

1)

3) Strip and stain the guy's barn!! Why??? Because he wants you to!!!! Simple as that! If he is like me (and millions of others), he hates the faded gray look. Perhaps he could care less about preserving the historical value of gray wood....he's probably saying to himself, "IT'S JUST WOOD!!" Like someone else said, if this is what he wants, he's just going to find someone else that will do him a crappy job. So why not give him the service and quality he (and the home) deserves??

Rick,

You can't argue with that. Better to have you do it right, then for someone else to tear it up so it's no longer in good condition!

Grab 'em and quote it!

Beth

[Adrian 155]

once again.... throwing my ignorance on the line......

What does the term T&G mean?

[PressurePros 248]

Adrian, tongue and groove.

I talked to Rick yesterday. He has a plan of attack.

[James 624]

"Tongue & Groove " is perverted Woodie Speak or a place to Talk and Dance !

[topcoat 14]

The real question and mystery is this. Will "re-moisturizing" this cedar with enough paraffin oil help to "flatten", or at least stop any further shrinkage. Not sure if the oil can "re-swell" the cedar, but am confident it will help slow down or alleviate further shrinkage and warping.

Rick

Not so sure about what you just spoke. Re-oiling might help against shrinking. But in this situation, that old rough sawn is going to drink up alot of oil and create a dimensional stability issue (since the wood is not back sealed) that will likely result in cupping.

[RPetry 564]

Rick

Not so sure about what you just spoke. Re-oiling might help against shrinking. But in this situation, that old rough sawn is going to drink up alot of oil and create a dimensional stability issue (since the wood is not back sealed) that will likely result in cupping.

Scott,

That may be true for drying or curing oils, not sure about paraffin oil.

The only comparison I can make is with old, thick, rough sawn cedar shakes on a gazebo roof. They were very dry and many, especially on the southern side, were severely cupped. Took a ton of oil, like 50 sq. ft. per gal. of RS.

Within a month, the shakes had flattened out. As it was a roof, gravity surely helped, but do not know to what extent.

We will do some testing on 3 boards in an unobtrusive area, and possibly wait for next spring to evaluate.

[James 624]

Re bulking the the wood fibers and keeping the moisture / weather out creates more stability. When wood is allowed to suck moisture in and let dry repeatedly . The ends will degrade faster than the center and cup.

Went by a cedar roof job I did in a April and the shakes flatten out better than I thought it wood. I also completed a house of similar construction ( this thread ) . 120 gallons of RS! It had never been sealed or treated.

[JFife 14]

Scott,

That may be true for drying or curing oils, not sure about paraffin oil.

The only comparison I can make is with old, thick, rough sawn cedar shakes on a gazebo roof. They were very dry and many, especially on the southern side, were severely cupped. Took a ton of oil, like 50 sq. ft. per gal. of RS.

Within a month, the shakes had flattened out. As it was a roof, gravity surely helped, but do not know to what extent.

We will do some testing on 3 boards in an unobtrusive area, and possibly wait for next spring to evaluate.

Very interesting stuff here. Scott, I don't think a filmer applied on one side would affect the cupping negatively. In fact, remembering back to decks I did, painted and solid stained decks always seem to have less cupping, warping, and splitting. I attribute that to a coating being applied early, resulting in a slow drying process.

I've always been interested in the "re-bulking" theory. But I can't see us being able to apply something heavy enough---and force enough penetration---to ever get anything beyond 5-10mils beyond the surface. That is interesting about the shingles, Rick. That will give me something to piddle with.....I'd like to test something like that.

edit: oops, I meant to quote Scott's post as well.

Edited September 26, 2009 by JFife

[RPetry 564]

... That is interesting about the shingles, Rick. That will give me something to piddle with.....I'd like to test something like that.

...

Jon,

Piddling is only allowed when you have a urinary problem. Healthy, real woodies pee in the woods!

Re-bulking old, dry wood is probably only possible with paraffin oils, ie: Bakers, TWP, or RS. Paraffin oil does not need to be "forced", if the wood is ready to take it, it will suck up a veritable ton of oil.

[JFife 14]

Think about this, Rick. We agree (assumed) that wood drying slower is a good thing. If dried out already, dumping on a paraffin oil *may* re-bulk, and cause the wood to re-shape slightly.

But in most drying situations, it is water that we aim to slow it's escape. So what about this: give those shakes a good, cleansing wash with HOT WATER?? After you've washed, let the surface dry (3 hrs or so, depending on side) and then coat it with RS!! The wood will be "re-bulked" with water....and you are going to do a quick surface seal with the RS, and this will cause the water inside to slooooowly evaperate, possibly causing the shakes to lay out evenly again. I'd be interested to see if this would work.

Incidently, this is the reason I'd be a proponent of sealing *any* kind of deck as soon as possible. Sure, the stain/coloring may not last long, but you'll achieve the ultimate goal: keeping the wood from cracking, splintering, etc. IMO, the whole direction many have gone lately of letting the wood dry/season for a year is the wrong move. I understand the reason....you want the stain to look good for as long as possible, you don't want to be known as the guy who's stain fades off in 6 months. But with customer education, I think this would be the solution to keeping a treated deck in decent shape for the longest amount of time. Thoughts?

[RPetry 564]

Think about this, Rick. We agree (assumed) that wood drying slower is a good thing. If dried out already, dumping on a paraffin oil *may* re-bulk, and cause the wood to re-shape slightly.

Jon,

In theory, your contention makes sense. In the field, working on installed wood is a bit more problematic. When testing moisture, we sink the Delmhorst pins down as far as they will go, ~ 1/4 inch in softwoods. If the wood is 12% or less, it is ready to apply the oil stain.

As far as re-bulking and paraffin oil, it does happen, particularly with good, dry, old, cedar. I've seen it.

But in most drying situations, it is water that we aim to slow it's escape. So what about this: give those shakes a good, cleansing wash with HOT WATER?? After you've washed, let the surface dry (3 hrs or so, depending on side) and then coat it with RS!! The wood will be "re-bulked" with water....and you are going to do a quick surface seal with the RS, and this will cause the water inside to slooooowly evaperate, possibly causing the shakes to lay out evenly again. I'd be interested to see if this would work.

Interesting, but I'll never know, as we don't have a hot water PW! But again, as in the last paragraph, I want the cedar to be bone dry at least a 1/4" in so that the oil can occupy the voids instead of water.

One other benefit of non-drying oils, as opposed to drying or film type oils, is that the wood is allowed to "breathe", or in other words, trapped moisture can escape through the surface. Linseed oil may also allow this, but I'm not so sure. Acrylics and latex as far as I know, do not wood to "breathe", allowing trapped moisture to escape.

In general, keeping water "trapped" in the wood is not a good thing. Letting it naturally cycle between wet and dry is, again, in general, probably better.

Incidently, this is the reason I'd be a proponent of sealing *any* kind of deck as soon as possible. Sure, the stain/coloring may not last long, but you'll achieve the ultimate goal: keeping the wood from cracking, splintering, etc. IMO, the whole direction many have gone lately of letting the wood dry/season for a year is the wrong move. I understand the reason....you want the stain to look good for as long as possible, you don't want to be known as the guy who's stain fades off in 6 months. But with customer education, I think this would be the solution to keeping a treated deck in decent shape for the longest amount of time. Thoughts?

Agreed. UV sunlight does the most obvious damage to exterior wood from the perspective of a customer. Stain color slowly fades away, and the wood turns grey. This is cosmetic.

What is not so obvious is moisture damage, particularly with newer wood. In temperate climates, moisture can cause real substrate damage, especially with the freeze/thaw cycles during the winter. As you well know, this is what causes checking, cracking, and eventual failure of horizontal wood.

Edited September 27, 2009 by RPetry

[topcoat 14]

Very interesting discussion, guys, and Rick you are right, I speak from little Parrafin experience.

[PressurePros 248]

I had both cedar customers ask me about sealing the cedar this early. They both did internet research and were given conflicting opinions. I am in Fife's camp. Though perhaps destined for an early failure, getting oil into the wood, especially the new growth cedar which is susceptible/sensitive to rot and moisture cycles is better than not. Is the common ground perhaps using a clear? a 100% curing oil? I have used the latter over the years and have had no problems with two year maintenance on new cedar.

[James 624]

The info on the internet concerning Cedar and finishes is from the Film Forming perspective . It does not relate to penetrating stains.

[James 624]

Re-bulking is not a theory !I have oiled wet wood (cedar shakes) in order to let the back dry out and not have the front absorb morning due. Which was turning into a nightmare next to the ocean.

I do and have done many new decks. Poor construction practices contribute more and the way nails are driven in to boards haven problems. The sun turns cedar grey quickly and that is a problem for a sealer that films and has dryers in it. If it dry's to the grey part of the wood it will fail sooner.

If you let Cedar age to loose some extractives and then replace them with an oil in essence you stop the aging process. Then from there it's Managed Care for Wood !

Did I say I hate CEDAR !!!!!!!!!!!

[RPetry 564]

"Tongue & Groove " is perverted Woodie Speak or a place to Talk and Dance !

Diamond Jim,

Hah! Very good. Another definition just came to mind, but I don't think it would be acceptable to post!