Question for those that know about ratios

[Christopher 102]

I don't know if I am thinking correctly but wanted some opinions.

If you put 1 gallon of chemical "A" into 4 gallons of water then the ratio is 4:1 (water to chemicals).

Now, if you downstream that mix with a downstreamer, say that pulls 10:1 does that make the "A" chemical mix coming out of the gun a 14:1 or something else like 40:1?

What is the ratio of the original chemical "A" now when diluted then downstreamed?

I have not done a test yet, I am thinking of using some food coloring to see the color difference and also try to time it and try to figure out what the final ratio is.

Any ideas?

[plainpainter 217]

I don't know if I am thinking correctly but wanted some opinions.

If you put 1 gallon of chemical "A" into 4 gallons of water then the ratio is 4:1 (water to chemicals).

Now, if you downstream that mix with a downstreamer, say that pulls 10:1 does that make the "A" chemical mix coming out of the gun a 14:1 or something else like 40:1?

What is the ratio of the original chemical "A" now when diluted then downstreamed?

I have not done a test yet, I am thinking of using some food coloring to see the color difference and also try to time it and try to figure out what the final ratio is.

Any ideas?

If your pulling 10:1 - that's eleven parts total with one part being your downstream mix of which the original chemical was mixed at 4:1. So you have 1/5 of 1/11 of the total end mix being the original chemical. So basically you now have a grand total of 55 parts one of them being the original chem. So your ratio reads 54:1

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, that is not correct. A ratio is expressed as a whole.

1:5 (chemical:water) would be one part chemical to four parts water. Think about in terms of a fraction.

Edited November 3, 2009 by PressurePros

[PressurePros 248]

I don't know if I am thinking correctly but wanted some opinions.

If you put 1 gallon of chemical "A" into 4 gallons of water then the ratio is 4:1 (water to chemicals). Chris, this would be the first dilution. The chemical would be one fourth of the mix or 25%.

Now, if you downstream that mix with a downstreamer, say that pulls 10:1 does that make the "A" chemical mix coming out of the gun a 14:1 or something else like 40:1? Now you are taking the above mix and breaking it down again. So you are taking that 25% dilution and dividing it by ten. So now its a 2.5% dilution.

What is the ratio of the original chemical "A" now when diluted then downstreamed?

I have not done a test yet, I am thinking of using some food coloring to see the color difference and also try to time it and try to figure out what the final ratio is.

Any ideas?

When diluting two separate times, you multiply the two ratios together.

4:1 mixed down again to 10:1 = 40:1

Expressed as a fraction:

1/4 x 1/10 = 1/40

[plainpainter 217]

Dan, that is not correct. A ratio is expressed as a whole.

1:5 (chemical:water) would be one part chemical to four parts water. Think about in terms of a fraction.

Ken, I majored in math - and ratios or proportions like this you have to add both sides to get how many 'parts' there are.

When you say 1:5 that's One part Chemical to 5 parts water for a total of 6 parts. That's how it was always defined as far as I know. You could define it the latter number to reflect the total 'parts' of which the first number is part of so 1:5 could be defined as 1 of 5 total parts. But ratios aren't always like this, sometimes you get ratios that look like this 3:2 how do you interpret this?

The way I was taught was 3 parts to 2 parts, 5 parts total.

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, I know you majored in math but all I can tell you is that you are still incorrect. As a final dilution, a ratio is a percentage.

1:4 = 1/4th

1/4th = 25%

You can contest it a hundred ways from Sunday but 1/4th will never equal 20%.

You do not add both sides of a proportion formula, you divide them.

Edited November 3, 2009 by PressurePros

[plainpainter 217]

Ken, I was never taught that ratios and fractions were equivalent ways to express the same thing - mathematics tends not to have more superfluous symbology than it needs.

Have you ever cooked, baked, followed a recipe? What do you do when they say mix 3 parts water to 2 parts flour and express it as 3:2?

This is what I found from a website....

Ratio: The relative size of two quantities expressed as the quotient of one divided by the other; the ratio of a to b is written as a:b or a/b.

So in pressure washing lingo when talking about downstreamers and talking about 1:4 downstreamers as 20% draw. The relative size of the quantity of water to chemical is one part chemical to four parts water. For a total of Five (5) parts total solution, 1 of those 5 parts is chemical or 1/5 which expressed as a percentage is 20%.

[PressurePros 248]

Dan, I totally know/knew where you are coming from. Its very confusing but I believe when talking about a downstream ratio we are talking about the amount of chemical to the amount of water being displaced. Its definitely not clear cut. Good "debate" on PT State. I have to bow out. Since Philip is on my side of train of thought, I'll let you guys battle it out.

[plainpainter 217]

To be honest, Ken, I've thought about it wayyy too much. I got some ideas to get my previous customers into my emailing database with a random drawing for prizes come christmas in exchange for great testimonials - need to discuss the details with you some details and further ideas. Let me know when you have time and/or interest about it.

[Alexy 85]

If your pulling 10:1 - that's eleven parts total with one part being your downstream mix of which the original chemical was mixed at 4:1. So you have 1/5 of 1/11 of the total end mix being the original chemical. So basically you now have a grand total of 55 parts one of them being the original chem. So your ratio reads 54:1

a 10 :1 mix has 10 totall parts and one of them is the additive picure it as a fraction 10/1 or 1 didived by 10 is .01 ( move the decimal over 2 places and replace with a percent and it is 10%

4:1 mix has 4 total parts and one is the additive 4/1 or 1 dividerd by 4 is .25 ( move the decimal over 2 places and replace with a percent sign? 25%

Edited November 3, 2009 by Alexy

[Richard 17]

Hey Ken

If you contest it a hundred ways, to say, Friday afternoon, does that then change any of the end results. LOL.

[Joe Ortiz 14]

Who cares it will be friday!!!

the way i understand it is...

If u have a 5gal pail, u pour 1gal of chem

then 4 gal of water.

that mix is now 4 to 1 ratio.

4parts water, 1 part chem. totaling 5 gal.

[john@AEC 37]

G'day Fellas

Just can't let this one go by.... In a previous life I was a Mathematics teacher.... and have taught this topic and studied the misconceptions many, many times.

RATIOS ARE NOT FRACTIONS :banghead:

repeat after me "RATIOS ARE NOT FRACTIONS, RATIOS ARE NOT FRACTIONS...."

Ratios compare quantities.

Fractions describe an amount in terms of "parts of the whole".

1:4 reads "one part is compared to four parts" - there are 5 parts in total (1 + 4 = 5). The units (gallons, pounds, miles) must be the same on both sides.

1/4 reads "one part out of a total of four parts" - there are four parts in total and I have one part.

4/4 reads "four parts out of four parts", being the whole thing, or 100%.

So,

1:4 is not the same as 1/4.

One gallon of chlorine added to four gallons of water, is not the same as one quarter of the solution is chlorine.

And today's gold star...

goes to Daniel.

[premiumpowerwash 14]

ACTUALLY the gold star goes to me...

Ratios are the relative magnitudes of 2 quantities

In a dilution ratio (which this is ).... the ratio is the amount of chemical to the amount of solution ... (the solution is the chemical and the water)...

what you have all done is asumed the ratio is chemical to water

it is not .. In a diltuion ratio the ratio stands for chemical to solution

If this was not true ... than a 5GPM machine with a 1:5 injector could take 1 gallon chem and 5 gallon water to then be pumping out 6 gallons of liquid.... why wouldnt we just use the injector to suck up that extra gallon and turn our machines in 6GPM machines ? Becuase ......

1:5 chemical injectors is a dilution ratio of your chemical .... 1 part chemical to 5 parts of solution .. this is true because everyone knows a 1:5 injector means 20% draw rate .... 1 part chemical divided by 5 parts solution = 0.2 or 20% chemical wich is being drawn.

In dilution ratios 1:4 means 1 part chemcial to four parts wich is the whole solution ( water and chemical ) this is why we also multiply dilution ratios 1:4 and a 1:10 means 1:40 because we have takin 1:4 = 25% chem and 1:10 = 10% chem and we have combined them ... does anyone know what 25% of 10% or 10% of 25% ...... they both are 2.5% = 1/40 wich is the ratio 1 part chem to 40 part solution 1:40 dilution ratio

[premiumpowerwash 14]

I hope that makes you sleep better at night ken

[PressurePros 248]

John, both are correct and the difference is in the semantics of language. I have visited .edu sites, physics sites, mathmetician forums and the answers are just as diverse with convincing debate on both sides.

I can list hundreds of websites (.edu sites, mathematician forums, etc) as well as draw from my own education (which only went as far as number theory and advanced calculus before I switched from an engineering major) to support my viewpoint as it is in the context of this discussion. The more i read, the more I become thoroughly confused.

1. the relation between two similar magnitudes with respect to the number of times the first contains the second: the ratio of 5 to 2, written 5:2 or 5/2. 2. proportional relation; rate: the ratio between acceptances and rejections.

#1 is Me/Philip DooLittle, #2 is Dan/John

[One Tough Pressure 580]

If this was not true ... than a 5GPM machine with a 1:5 injector could take 1 gallon chem and 5 gallon water to then be pumping out 6 gallons of liquid.... why wouldnt we just use the injector to suck up that extra gallon and turn our machines in 6GPM machines ?

Well, if you do not mind the low pressure that goes with the downstreamer, the yes you can get 6 gpm.

Keep it simple,whether it be ounces or gallons. If you have a 1:4 mix it is 5 total or whatever the numbers are. So in ounces it is 5 ounces total for chemical and water or for one gallon it is 160 ounces total with 128 for the water and 32 for the chem.

[premiumpowerwash 14]

in dilution ratios it is not 1:4 .. 5 total ... DILUTIONS REPRESENT SOLUTE WITH IN SOLVENTS ... the total is 4 in a 1:4 .. most chem injectors are talked about at 20% draw rate .... this is 1/5 ... they are also said to be a 1:5 as a dilution ratio ... if we add 1 + 5 = 6 than 1/6 would be 16% draw rate. I do not know any typical 1:5 downstreamer that is a max 16% draw rate.... Dilution ratios compare the chemical to the total amount of solution its that simple. For those of you wanting to google and search up answers please refrain using ratio, fractions, proportions as keywords... look up dilutions because that is what we are doing to chemicals .. diluting them.

Edited November 8, 2009 by premiumpowerwash

[john@AEC 37]

#1 is Me/Philip DooLittle, #2 is Dan/John

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

"... hundreds of sites..." Ken, you really need to get out more...

Edited November 9, 2009 by johnmurrell
because I can

[Oxfordlawn 14]

Here is a dilution ratio chart I found from a chemical company whom I would hope knows and has it right---but ya never know. It appears the ratio in chemical solutions "is" more of a fraction. 1:4 is 1/4 , according to this site

http://www.tomorrowchemicals.com/files/Dilution_Ratios_TC.pdf

Edited November 9, 2009 by Oxfordlawn