Honda Engine

[cwarrior 14]

Hi, recently purchased a new hot water unit. I have a Honda 20 hp electric start engine that is in good condition. I bought my older unit on 12/31/05. I want to sell the engine, but not sure what a fair price is as it really runs good. Any advice? Or I was thinking of using the engine to make a pressure washer. Anyone ever build their own unit, and willing to share tips, pics, etc.? It would be a good challenge for me. Thanks,

Mark

[extremeclean 14]

Are you just wanting to sell the engine and keep the skid or sell the entire skid.

About selling the motor you have to remember that you can buy a brand new one for $1,400 with 0 hours on it, The price that you come up with will also depend on the condition of the motor "If anything is missing or torn up" and the amount of hours since its a 2005 model.

As for building a pressure washer, you already have the motor now you will need to buy a pump, you can run a 5.5 gpm at 3,500 psi as for what pump everyone has there own kind they like. You can contact some of the vedors that support the site that will give you more details and pricing.

Hope this helps.

[Jerry 24]

Right on Matt.

..and for a simple-beefy pump system (without going belt drive)..

AR's 5.5 @4000 with gear reduction would be cool,

..if you want, you have the Hp.

5.5gpm x 4000 psi x .0007 = 15.4 HpCont.

15.4 / 20HpInt = 77% ..that's perfect. (80% is "MAX-MAX")

..just plumb it for reliability, and blast like #$!

Call Russ Johnson.. tell him I sent you. :)

actually, he's got family to be with this week..

send him an e-mail, and give him time to respond.

[Adrian 155]

A 6 yr. old. Honda 20 in decent to very good condition could pull 350.00-500.00 to the right person.

[810F250 14]

Right on Matt.

..and for a simple-beefy pump system (without going belt drive)..

AR's 5.5 @4000 with gear reduction would be cool,

..if you want, you have the Hp.

5.5gpm x 4000 psi x .0007 = 15.4 HpCont.

15.4 / 20HpInt = 77% ..that's perfect. (80% is "MAX-MAX")

..just plumb it for reliability, and blast like #$!

Call Russ Johnson.. tell him I sent you. :)

actually, he's got family to be with this week..

send him an e-mail, and give him time to respond.

:topic:

Jerry the formula that we have become accustomed to (psi multiplied by gpm) divided by 1100 incorporates the 80% factor for gas engines?

Some manufacturers say run your gas engine at 3400 rpm, ... but for that engine speed the charts shows that it produces less horsepower than advertised, ........and the manufacturers advertised HP ratings is of a production sample of gas engines and are all at 3600 rpm without accessories and at sea level.

Is this some of the reasons I have seen some equations that take the electric brake HP calculation and multiply it by a number from as little as 1.5 to as much as 2.0 to obtain the gas HP requirement?

[Russ Johnson 141]

I prefer the formula:

[(GPM X PSI) / 1450] X 1.5

[810F250 14]

I prefer the formula:

[(GPM X PSI) / 1450] X 1.5

Thanks Russ,.... I have seen that formula and some variations (the denominator as 1460),

....... is (gpm x Psi)/1100 running the gas motor at its upper limit?

Most dont run engines under tested HP conditions(maximum rpm, good gas , at sea level, not using the charging system, no air filter restriction, 60F inlet air, clean engine oil etc, etc, etc)

Edited February 15, 2011 by 810F250
added

[Russ Johnson 141]

....... is (gpm x Psi)/1100 running the gas motor at its upper limit?

Most dont run engines under tested HP conditions(maximum rpm, good gas , at sea level, not using the charging system, no air filter restriction, 60F inlet air, clean engine oil etc, etc, etc)

That's exactly it. And the fact that the governor travel is close to 100% WOT. I started building some homeowner type pressure washers years ago using Honda GC engines. I had to take my prototype for Honda testing. It included cylinder temp, oil temp, and governor travel. 3/4 WOT was what Honda deemed acceptable to keep the engine under warranty.

(WOT = Wide open throttle)

[Jerry 24]

:lolsign:Ha HAA HA Ha haa

you "scientists" are so predictable.

Nigel,

I use my formula as a quick reference..

air temp, altitude, etc.. ALL weigh in..

I just don't waste my time with trivialities, when the "real-world test"

is at the bottom line.

Also,

I don't consider the GC series "worthy horsepower" to begin with..

don't expect more than 70% from them.

..and 100 hours.

I KNEW I could get an INSTANTaneous response from Nigel..

You make me laugh.

Just hope that when I get a chance to look in your parts-bin,

I see synthetic oils. Eh?

Go clean something..

..and at not more than 75.0000000 % .. of rated Hp.

Now I won't be able to get that song out of my head.. .."Weird Science"

[810F250 14]

That's exactly it. And the fact that the governor travel is close to 100% WOT. I started building some homeowner type pressure washers years ago using Honda GC engines. I had to take my prototype for Honda testing. It included cylinder temp, oil temp, and governor travel. 3/4 WOT was what Honda deemed acceptable to keep the engine under warranty.

(WOT = Wide open throttle)

What is the engine rpm at 3/4 WOT you figure Russ J?

i was told not to run my kohlers under 3000 rpm, for cooling, Hydrulic oil pressure, etc

[810F250 14]

:lolsign:Ha HAA HA Ha haa

you "scientists" are so predictable.

Nigel,

I use my formula as a quick reference..

air temp, altitude, etc.. ALL weigh in..

I just don't waste my time with trivialities, when the "real-world test"

is at the bottom line.

Also,

I don't consider the GC series "worthy horsepower" to begin with..

don't expect more than 70% from them.

..and 100 hours.

I KNEW I could get an INSTANTaneous response from Nigel..

You make me laugh.

Just hope that when I get a chance to look in your parts-bin,

I see synthetic oils. Eh?

Go clean something..

..and at not more than 75.0000000 % .. of rated Hp.

Now I won't be able to get that song out of my head.. .."Weird Science"

Jerry I was just trying to understand the formula, and what % of the engine load is incorporated in the (psi x gpm)/1100, because I have seen the other calculations that I have mentioned above.

After my first fill of natural engine oil that broke in the kohlers, I use Mobil 1 Syn

I need to wash more indeed, this is as close as I could get to working on the mechanicals of pw units, i like the basic tech talk, I guess I miss the days of working on steam and gas turbines in the ammonia and LNG industries.

[Russ Johnson 141]

What is the engine rpm at 3/4 WOT you figure Russ J?

i was told not to run my kohlers under 3000 rpm, for cooling, Hydrulic oil pressure, etc

The governed rpm is 3,600. This will allow a drop to 3,400 under load. It doesn't require much throttle to maintain 3,600 without a load. Imagine the throttle to run a car at 2,000 rpm sitting in park, then again going up a steep grade. Honda doesn't want the governor to "floor it" just to do its job.

[810F250 14]

The governed rpm is 3,600. This will allow a drop to 3,400 under load. It doesn't require much throttle to maintain 3,600 without a load. Imagine the throttle to run a car at 2,000 rpm sitting in park, then again going up a steep grade. Honda doesn't want the governor to "floor it" just to do its job.

So thats explains why those direct drive pumps are rated at 3400rpm, ......see a little tech talk is good, lol........I always wondered why not a 3600 rpm rating like the engine it is bolted to.

Russ I see that kohler has their command pro series gas engines no load speed at 3750rpm, i adjusted my kohler to this rpm once and had a little more water from the pump, was good for a house wash & rinsing but it dropped the coil outlet temp for concrete cleaning, so i put it back.

You know what I would like to see......an industry shift adjustable 2 speed transmission (at least 2 speeds) so that an operator can choose to run his pump at either of the common manufacturers ratings; 1450 rpm or 1750 rpm.....ahhhhh...... No pulleys or belts to mess with, increasing/decreasing flow as needed........ wouldn't that be sweet?

Edited February 16, 2011 by 810F250

[Jerry 24]

Nigel, you do make people think,

and hopefully your attention to the details gets more people to DEAL WITH the details. Eh?

about 27 years ago I saw a "home made" system with dual 6gpm pumps..

the guy had it on a Volkswagon engine, with the transmission intact,

so he could change the pump RPM

as you suggested.

I'm thinking a over-drive gear box like www.GearVendors.com makes would be cool,

just expensive for the benefits..

I'd rather spend more money on Hp,

and adjustable speed.

[810F250 14]

Nigel, you do make people think,

and hopefully your attention to the details gets more people to DEAL WITH the details. Eh?

about 27 years ago I saw a "home made" system with dual 6gpm pumps..

the guy had it on a Volkswagon engine, with the transmission intact,

so he could change the pump RPM

as you suggested.

I'm thinking a over-drive gear box like www.GearVendors.com makes would be cool,

just expensive for the benefits..

I'd rather spend more money on Hp,

and adjustable speed.

Thanks Jerry, it was a thought I had for sometime, the only other way that I think you can achieve adjustable pump speeds on a fixed transmission drive is with a (1.943: 1) gear reduction.

so at 3400rpm loaded engine speed you obtain the ~1750 rpm pump speed

and at 2817rpm loaded engine speed you obtain the ~1450 rpm pump speed

Provided the engine of has adequate HP at both 3400 and 2817 speeds for the pump HP requirements at the various speeds above.

A 30 Hp Kohler in theory may just run a TSF2021 with a (1.943 : 1) reduction transmission, its engine power at 2900rpm is ~ 24HP and ~29HP at 3400rpm (I would rather at least 34Kohler)

Then an operator would have the luxury of adjusting flow from 8.5 @ 3500psi to 6 gpm @ 3500psi, by adjusting engine speed, if you used a Briggs 35 HP engine you would not have to worry about the proper functioning of the hydraulic lifters on the kohlers. (although I think they would be fine at 2400 rpm engine speed, it maybe wise however to have oil pressure and temp monitoring on the kohler).

8.5 gpm for rinsing and house washing and 6 gpm for better boiler heat gain and waste water management.

Instead of wasting energy unloading pressurized water through the bypass to achieve the 6 gpm output, which I have done on occasion. Think about the engine fuel savings and flexability.

Sorry Mark for jacking this thread,

Edited February 17, 2011 by 810F250
spelling, links

[Russ Johnson 141]

Nigel, the only hole in your theory is the burner. At less than full speed, the 12 volt charging system won't produce enough to keep up with a burner. Likewise, a generator spinning less than 3400 won't produce 120 volts @ 60 Hz. Fluctuating the engine speed would compromise the electrical components of the burner.

[810F250 14]

Nigel, the only hole in your theory is the burner. At less than full speed, the 12 volt charging system won't produce enough to keep up with a burner. Likewise, a generator spinning less than 3400 won't produce 120 volts @ 60 Hz. Fluctuating the engine speed would compromise the electrical components of the burner.

I forgot about that Russ, thats a big hole, there goes the fuel savings,.... now that you need a separate generator to run a 120v burner.

for those that have recycling systems and a generator running already the idea maybe a viable option.

[810F250 14]

This thread has so much info already, since I mentioned transmissions so many times with links I thought I might put this interesting transmission coupling here.

Vibroflex Coupling

A key feature of the RHD range is the unique Vibroflex torsional drive coupling. Located in-between the engine and gearbox it eliminates the on-off stresses and snatch effect that can occur when a conventional hollow to solid shaft drive system is used.

What do you think Russ?

Edited February 18, 2011 by 810F250

[Russ Johnson 141]

Looks like they only use that on the diesel engines. It might keep the key from getting beat up.

[wgasa 16]

Great thread ! Regards

[Jerry 24]

For the guys that buy our larger Vacuums..

you can connect multiple charging systems together to solve thses problems..

The charging system of the vac isn't doing much, so add charge-power to the heater circuit,

and you can play with engine-speeds on both,

..and still have reliable batteries, and heater !

Trailer and RV-repair centers know all about how..

it just takes a few rectifiers. :)

[810F250 14]

For the guys that buy our larger Vacuums..

you can connect multiple charging systems together to solve thses problems..

The charging system of the vac isn't doing much, so add charge-power to the heater circuit,

and you can play with engine-speeds on both,

..and still have reliable batteries, and heater !

Trailer and RV-repair centers know all about how..

it just takes a few rectifiers. :)

Sounds good Jerry, have you done a setup of which you mentioned?

[Jerry 24]

...not in a LONG time..

My heaters draw the LEAST POSSIBLE current,

and I use STRONG 16 to 20 amp charging systems,

so you have more adjustability with our systems than others.

I find most often,

We run several engine starting systems off a single BIG battery,

with only 1 charging system attached..

the other charging systems are ready for a quick-connect IF needed..

just plug in the fuse.

That said,

2 charging systems would be the Ultimate in reliability,

so.. I think I'll build a beefy-water-proof version for our product line, and Y'all

[810F250 14]

...not in a LONG time..

My heaters draw the LEAST POSSIBLE current,

and I use STRONG 16 to 20 amp charging systems,

so you have more adjustability with our systems than others.

I find most often,

We run several engine starting systems off a single BIG battery,

with only 1 charging system attached..

the other charging systems are ready for a quick-connect IF needed..

just plug in the fuse.

That said,

2 charging systems would be the Ultimate in reliability,

so.. I think I'll build a beefy-water-proof version for our product line, and Y'all

I agree with having strong charging systems,

I think I have the standard 20amp charging on my 30Hp Kohler, when using a delvan 12v pump from the fully charged battery, the 12v pump flow is much stronger with the Kohler running.

I however have 120V burner systems.

I remember you telling me Jerry that the bigger Briggs have an "ultra beefy" special order charging system,......... was it 30 or 35 amps? I know it was bigger than the Kohlers max at 25amps

[Jerry 24]

23 Hp Vanguard is available with 30/50 amp charging system..

I am told, 31 and/or 35 Hp vers will be available too.