Wood Furring

[Degraffreed 21]

Hello to all. I have a few questions that Maybe some of the Vets could answer.

I just did my second deck cleaning job today. I used sodium percarbonate from E-spec. It stated 4 oz to a gallon of hot water. I made a 5 gal mixture for two pump up sprayers. WE applied let dwell 15 min, then used a 4010 ( 800 psi) tip. My machine is 3000 psi, hot cold 5gpm.

I was cleaning deck and railings. The deck did not " Fur up " but the railings did.

What did I do wrong if anything? Is Furring a normal part of the deck restoration process and something that happens on all cleanings?

The deck was pressure treated pine and about 2 years old.

Did I let the Restore mixture stay on to long? So I waited about 30 min then brought out my belt sander and tried to sand the railing and the deck. It took the "fur" off some what but I could not use the belt sander in between the railings. I did this while the wood was still wet. Should I go back and resand after the wood has completly dried? The customer was happy with the results. Camparing the current deck to the "green" deck she had for the last two years.

I am always trying to be the best at what I do and need some advice from you wood guys on the proper procedures. I see some of the posted pictures of past post and I use these as guides to what my result should look like. Please e-mail any advice, tips, articles and experiences, concerning wood deck cleaning that could help me meet this objective to degraffreeds@aol.com

Thanks in advance for your help

Degraffreed

[squirtgun 122]

I have yet to clean a deck that did not have some furring.

I would wait to sand until the wood is dry.You may find that what you have already sanded may still have furring when or if you are going back to stain.It sounds like you did everything else properly.

[seymore 90]

Most wood that will fuzz up on you is because it's the dead wood fibers.Most of the time that will happen to cedar especially since it's so soft.

Was the railing not made out cedar?

When you go back after it dries and then sand,It should come off much easier.

The stronger chem strength will cause some wood to get fuzzy especially if it's really greyed and weathered.

I have never cleaned with anything else but bleach and soap or my S.hydroxide stripper.I will only have wood get fuzzy when i strip and that's not all the time.

So I'm not sure how strong the chem is that you used.

[One Tough Pressure 580]

Hot water will make wood fur as well. Aside from mixing the chems hot, did you wash that way too?

[James 624]

For pre-carbs to work the wood fibers have to be dead - Some times pre-carbs just raise the grain- This happen in the first two years of a PT deck. Basicly there is not enough wood to be oxidized off.

[Atlantic Power Washing 14]

Furring comes from your chemicals being mixed too strong....spliters come from too much pressure. Over time you will be able to look at a deck and gauge how much pressure, what type of cleaner to use (bleach, sodium hydroxide, pre carb.) and how strong to apply the cleaner. Always use the bare minimume amount of cleaner to get the job done and you will not have a furring problem. Same goes with pressure.....if you start to see little spiters, back off the pressure some. Hope this helps. Good luck.

[Degraffreed 21]

Thanks Guys

I have read the replies and still seem a little confused. So many different posts that I need to get a more specific answer.

The deck was pressure treated pine. Maybe two years old max.

OTP, I did use hot water to mix chems, and then hot water to clean deck. I figure the hot water would help in the cleaning process. I used my 4010 tip after letting product dwell for 15 min.

Squirtgun, is it okay to use my belt sander to take off the furring when it dries? I have read this post concerning defurring pads. Will the sander work just a good?

Just trying to get a good technique down before spring rush.

Degraffreed

[seymore 90]

You want to only clean a deck with only cold water.Using hot water will cause the wood to swell up and expand.This can cause the boards to crack even more than normal.

This could be the reason the wood is furring up on you more than just using cold water.

Your belt sander should work just find except for those hard to reach places.A palm sander might work better around the railing and spindles.

If you want to call me i would be glad to help you out with cleaning and sealing tips.In 8 years i've leaned alot of little tips to make my life much easier.

[Celeste 341]

When we have had furring it has always been on the vertical wood. We believe that our technique and chemicals are correct and furring is minimal, however.......could it be that since horizontal boards are subject to more foot traffic and natural weathering, there is actually less fiber that is "loose" to cause furring?

Celeste

[seymore 90]

I would think the decking might not furr as bad cause it's harder wood.The 2x2's on the railing especially tend to be softer.

The older the deck gets the floor will soften up and will furr up with stronger chem use...water preassure etc..

If i see the wood looks like it will fuzz up on me which does not happen that often.When i'm cleaning i will try to p/wash it off so it's not left when the wood dries.

Stripping a deck is probally the worst for getting a fuzz but i've learned to minimize it.

[Celeste 341]

LOL - you'd be surprised how many decks here have deck boards as hand rails....spindles on the other hand, yes seem to be different - sometimes have a hard time explaining to folks why one piece of wood seems to stain differently than another. My favorite analogy on that one was one Steve R. told me.....if you take 10 people and lay them out in the sun, are they all going to turn the same color? Maybe sometimes furring is caused by a lesser grade of wood being used in some places as opposed to others.....ie, deck boards are harder than spindle wood?

Celeste

[seymore 90]

That's a funny example to explain the color of people to the wood tone diffrence.

90% of my spindles are gonna be cedar versus pine.

I usually the just say it's gonna accent the diffrent species of wood and give the deck character.

I think the age of the wood and chem strength and also the sun damage the wood has will cause more fuzzies.

[Celeste 341]

I guess the biggest question in my mind at this point is not what might cause fuzzies, but actually what is a fuzzy by definition? Are they dead fibers, damaged fibers, a loose top layer that doesn't stand up until water is shot on it at a different angle than rain?

It would seem that if fuzzies were initally started by natural wood weathering but only made extremely visible & obvious by washing, then some furring would not be created by chemicals or pressure, just made more obvious by standing them up.

Am I making any sense?

Celeste

[seymore 90]

Yes the fuzzies are the dead wood fibers and if you P/wash good enough you can remove them with not having to sand.

[Henry B. 4]

Hey Deggra,

If you used hot water to clean the deck that alone will cause the problems your having. I have used warm water on my deck for a couple reasons (testing and other) but the hottest I've ever used was 90 degrees and I never had any problems at all. If your going above 100 then you can expect problems. 130 or more and your outright begging for them.

What chemicals did you use on the deck including dilution rate and also temperature of water. Lets see if we can find out what caused your situation so it won't happen again in the future.

Skip the question about the chemicals, I just re read the post. I haven't used that product so I'm not sure if those are the proper uses or not. If so, I'd have to guess that the wood was pretty dried out to begin with or it was from the hot water. Can you give some more details about that?

[Degraffreed 21]

To all that replied....Thanks.

Seymore, I read that you say if you do get fuzzies, you powerwash them off?. Isn't that the cause of the fuzzies? to much pressure (800 ) psi, or being to close?. I have just learned quite a bit since posting this thread.

The mistake I believe I made according to you the VETS post are as follows:

1. Cleaned to close to the spindles.

2.Using hot water the entire time.

3.I was using Restore per instructions. So I do not know if this was a contributing factor. I did use bleach and soap on my own deck and I did not like the results so I used a mfg chem( Restore).

4. Tried sanding fuzzies off as the wood was still wet. I know its sound silly but hey If you do not know, you just dont know.

I did apply two separate coats to get the deck to brighten up really nice.

Using a chem like Restore, does this constitute as a Stripper? and then should be Nuetrilized, as some post states?

Seymore, I will plan on calling you soon. I am in Atlanta and know that there is a time difference of may 2 hours. I think I can learn from speaking to you later.

Any Wood guys or Gal in the Atlanta surrounding area willing to have free day or two worth of labor in exchange for on the job training of deck cleaning and sealing? Very Motivated and hard work ethics. I will not be a hinderance of any kind. I just want to be the best I can to my customers. I have turned down staining and sealing both of the deck I have cleaned mainly because I do not want to PRACTICE on my customers deck. But a little on the job traing will go a long way.Give me a call at 678-480-0123. I would like to schedule on weekends. I am still a part-timer.

Degraffreed.

Cheleste... you up for it.?

[Henry B. 4]

Hey Degraffreed,

We all make mistakes, the one thing that sets you apart is that you care and that you want to fix the problem so it won't happen again. A lot of other companies would just say hey, as long as they pay for it so it must be good enough..

[Aplus 525]

With proper chems, I wash at about 400-500 psi on average. I prefer using a dual lance wand with a 25 degree #9 tip. If I need a little extra, or less psi, it's ready at the twist of the wrist.

Sometimes wood firs up unexpectedly. Why, I'm not exactly sure, but I always expect at least a little, and sometimes get surprised when there's a little more fuzz.

You have to remove the fuzz when the deck is dry. A Makita or Dewalt, variable speed circular sanders equipped with 9" defelting pads are the best bet for quick removal from accessible areas.

Palm sanders and sanding blocks work best for spindles and tight areas.

A gas leaf blower works well to blow off all the sawdust you will create.

[seymore 90]

Degraff

When i'm P/washing I can see the dead wood coming off as i am cleaning.The same goes for and old sealer/stain you would be stripping.You want to try to get it all off and have the grain of the wood even and not blotchy.

Not all decks act the same depending on the age of the wood or the UV damage or old sealer you're trying to remove.

The only important part of cleaning is that the wood be clean and have a even look to the grain of the wood.

To master deck cleaning will just come with practice and more practice.You will find lot's of guys have different ways of cleaning decks.Everybody is still trying to achieve the same goal.

You will find little tips that will help speed up the cleaning process and make you more efficient at your job.I'm always thinking ahead and looking at what the finished project will look like.

Trying not to overlook something that will cause problems when you return to stain the job.

I'm usually up early and late also so the 2 hr diff is not a big deal call anytime.

[James 624]

Practice and understanding the degradation of wood are very important factor's. With experience knowing the age of the wood and inspecting it's visually condition. Will allow you to know what solution to use and how much pressure to apply. Its easier for rookies to learn on old wood. Because the dead wood comes off pretty easy. Wood between 0 and 4 years old is were your knowledge comes in. And with experience becomes easier. Go practace........

[Celeste 341]

Degraff - we're about 5 hours north.....feel free to come on up - I can keep you posted on jobs (if we ever dry out from the waterfall that came through here last night) Are you going to either of the Round tables on the 29th or the 5th? Would be a great place to learn and ask questions.

Call us anytime :)

Celeste

[Degraffreed 21]

Celeste, I am looking to atten the the 29 roundtable here in lawerencville, ga also I will hold you to that. Its either you or steve in tennesse. I just want to learn as much as I can to produce the result that you,steve, beth and rod posting beautiful after shoots of thing you have completed.

Henry, thank for the compliment. I do like to give the customer my best, even when they are happy with the results, something burns inside me, that will not let me settle for the result that I produced. I love this business and I sometime do a Cadillac job at a volkwagon price. But that how I am. I want to be the best around my neck of the woods.

degraffreed

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'm confused....

Which is it Henry? 90 or 120 that you used?

http://www.pwnabbs.org/showthread.php?t=1249&highlight=hot+water+wood

See Below..............................

Sep 13th, 03, 10:28 PM

Henry Bockman

PWNA Moderator

Age: 36

Location: Montgomery County, Maryland

Joined: Mar 2003

Posts: 706

Hot water on wood?

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I've seen this topic brought up a couple times in the past on other boards and I would like to know how you all feel about it.

Do any of you use HOT water for cleaning decks?

Do you have problems such as furring or anything else?

What temperature do you use?

Why do you use hot water instead of cold?

I have tried this on my deck and I had no problems at all but I was only using about 120 degrees. It seemed to clean much faster and easier than when I used cold water. Due to the extra cost of fuel and possible damage to decks I have not done it on other jobs though. How do you all feel about this?

Henry

[Henry B. 4]

Why thanks Beth and Rod,

I stand corrected, I guess I've tried it from faucet temperature up to 120 degrees before, maybe I'm just getting old. Or, I just don't see a reason to point out someone elses mistakes.

It's nice to know your there, to correct us on every detail.

I never said I was perfect. I'm just trying to help out when I can.

I also want to point out that I did this experiment on my own property... Just in case someone wants to know.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Henry,

Just wanted to be clear. Inconsistencies can lead to misinformation, which can create problems.

Beth :groovy:

[James 624]

Once a deck is sealed hot water works great.