Whitish Haze

[Degraffreed 21]

To all wood restortation vets. I need to know if I am doing something wrong here.

I cleaned my deck with Restore ( percarbonate) and the used a wood brightner from Sunbrite. This is the scenario.

I wanted to test and see if there would be a difference in the way I cleaned decks.

1.

I started by using Restore to clean three steps, mix 1cup per two gallon pump up sprayer, let dwell 15 min, Applied a second coat on all three steps, let dwell ten more minutes ( Epec suggested the second application as a brightner step), then rinsed.

2.

Used bleach and soap on another three step, brushed and rinsed.

3. On three last steps Used one application of Restore, dwell, rinsed then Applied Wood Brightner from Sunbrite, here is the results.

On the restore steps I did twice. I had a lot of furring and appeared to be some wand marks in two of the three steps.( wondering if I let the Restore dwell to long or did I make the mix too strong. Can you make Percarbonate to strong to the point it furs the wood, with out using much pressure?)

On the Bleached steps. I did not like the results. Step did not have mold on them at all before applying Bleach mix, just testing to see the difference in using the bleach mix. Appeared have left those steps with a whitish look after it dried.

Now on the Restore and the Brightner process. I was not crazy about the results here either. I cleaned with percarbonate then while the steps were still wet applied the wood brightner( reading ingredients list as Oxalic Acid) as instructed on the container. Seems to do okay.

I guess what I am saying " is I want the same Results that BETH and Rod gets after cleaning and Nuetralizing their decks even before they apply the stain.

I wonder if there pictures posted results are different because of the different wood types. Mine is Pt Pine. 4 years old been cleaned few time per year.

HOW CAN I GET BETTER RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I LOOKING AT THE COST OF PLANE TICKETS TO HEAD TO MARYLAND FOR SOME OJT.

DeGraffreed

[PressurePros 248]

In order:

1) If the Restore is just sodium percar your mix was not too strong, if anything it was too weak. Usually one cup of percarbonate per gallon of water. I use a 12 oz Wawa coffee cup per gallon. How much pressure did you use on the rinse? I have continually lowered the pressure I use on decks to the point where I can stick my fingers in front of the stream with not even a sting. (about 400 psi) If you have furring and lap marks, my guess is your pressure was higher?

2) I know some guys swear by bleach. I hate the look it gives the wood. The key is the right dilution I guess.

3) I honestly don't know what you are doing wrong. You may be judging photos of projects that were stripped with sodium hydroxide as opposed to just cleaned being cleaned with percarb

[Dale 16]

Are you evaluating them after they were completely dry? You can't really tell until things are dry.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I have a couple of questions....

Look at the MSDS for Sunbrite's brightener, and tell me what percent the Oxylic in it is....

Also did you rinse the oxylic ( brightener) afterwards?

I suggest you do, if you didn't.

Overuse of bleach or Oxylic can give the wood an unnatural look. You will want to defur the deck to knock the fuzzies off. Depending on what is in the Restore, yes it may fuzz the wood. I would need to know what chemicals are on the MSDS to tell you more.

Also post some pics if you can...

Beth

p.s. just get in the car and drive up.... ;)

[James 624]

Your killing the wood that's already dead. Too many steps. After restore use the brightner. Don't let bleach dry on the wood ! Your sucking the life out of the wood with that many steps . Because these products are oxidizers (alkines) they effect the surface of the wood.

[Russell Cissell 65]

DeGraffreed-

The key to the vibrant results you see in most of Beth and Rods jobs is in the chemistry.

Simply put not all restoration products are equal. Just because you might find one or two of the same ingredients listed on an MSDS does not mean what you are using is the same. Keep in mind only hazardous ingredients are required to be listed on an MSDS.

The goal of a wood restoration professional is to protect and preserve the wood. You should use products that are specifically designed with that goal in mind. There is more to restoration than taking away what is bad. You have to preserve what is good. The natural beauty of wood comes form the fats, oils and sugars that are naturally present. It is the balance of these extractives that gives each species it's characteristic color.

The results that Beth and Rod get from EFC-38, HD-80 and Citralic are the result of matched chemistry. Each formulation was designed to do it's job without unnecessary damage to the wood. The reason that the pictures you see after they wash and brighten look so good is because they are able to clean or strip while preserving the natural sugars and oils in the wood.

If the wood turns whitish it is because you have depleted the natural oils or sugars. Not only is this bad for the wood, it will require more stain to provide equal protection.

There are many products that claim to be as good as the ESI wood restoration line but the simple fact is, ESI developed these products specifically for wood restoration. Each was designed to help you do the best restoration job possible and to separate yourself from the competition.

Best of Luck

Russell Cissell

Extreme Solutions, Inc.

1-866-536-7393

[Degraffreed 21]

Russell, Do you send out sample or test kits. I would love to try your products? Do you have a distributor in the Atlanta area?

Also, I just use a percabonate to strip/clean then use a Oxylic brightner BUT as Beth posted, I did not rinse off. I was told that I could leave it on the wood wet, from Sunbrite rep. I will have to look into your product line.

Never heard anyone say that wood had "Fats, Oils and Sugars" in them. This is way I continue to learn this business. Thanks for your input. I will get with you soon.

DeGraffreed

[Russell Cissell 65]

DeGraffreed

As a rule ESI doesn't send out samples. If you are a die hard try before you buy shopper give me a call and I can get something worked out. The good news is we have a distributor in the Atlanta area. SunBrite now carries our entire wood restoration line. Give Tracy or Pete a call and I'm sure they will take care of you.

I once wrote a small article for Cleaner Times Magazine titled something like The Composition of Wood. I just searched my system and I don't seem to have it anymore. The short of it is . . .

Wood is composed of Cellulose, Hemicellulose, Lignin and extractives.

The structure of wood comes from the long tube shaped cells that are made up of cellulose and hemicellulose, Lignin is the tough material that holds the cells together. This structure is fundementally the same for all trees.

The ratio of lignin to cellulose primarily accounts for the difference in woods density, weight and porosity.

The term "extractives" is used to group the other matter that makes up wood. This includes things like fats, oils and sugars. These extractives account for the scent, color and moisture content of the wood.

That being said, our job as restoration/preservation professionals is to protect the wood. If you use chemicals that "burn" away the naturally occurring oils, fat's and sugars you are causing damage to the wood. Then you are going to turn around and pay for a product that will replace those crucial extractives that you've "burned out."

If you treat the wood restoration process as a system, not only will you achieve better results you will also maximize your profitability. If you are interested in learning more, give me a call. I am always happy to help contractors understand and appreciate wood so you can make the most of your restoration efforts.

Best of Luck!

Russell Cissell

Extreme Solutions, Inc.

1-866-536-7393

imrcc1@aol.com

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We have been saying all along Russ's product suite is the most comprehensive out there. Well, that and a bit of skill helps too... ;)

Call Russ. He'll help you.

Beth

[James 624]

You can use any solution you want as long as you know how to get results. You can get the same results using bleach. There is not much difference with all the pre-carb products on the market. Its a batch of white powder in a box. On a job I'm doing now (cedar restoration house ) I used Two different pre-carbs and bleach. Esi and Ready Seals no difference. Bleach worked better and won !!!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'll agree with James that, Knowing how the product works and understanding its limitations or strengths can get you great results. This of course takes time and evaluation.

Degafreed, can you post some pics?

Rod~

[Russell Cissell 65]

James-

It is great that we've got contractors like you who are willing to help. I am afraid on this one you've got your facts wrong. I would agree that you can use bleach and complete a job and get paid for it, which is in a sense getting the same result. But saying that all chemicals are the same is quite inaccurate.

To compare our EFC-38 with any other product on the market is like saying that a hammer is basically the same as a screwdriver. When you give information and you are not informed it is not helpful to anyone. If all chemicals are the same why wouldn't you use a caustic stripper to brush your teeth? They've both got Sodium Hydroxide in them, should do the same thing right?

If all chemicals are the same then why is it they choose Sodium Hypochlorite (bleach) to break down wood into pulp in the manufacture of paper? Why not use something much safer and less expensive if all chemicals do the same thing?

I've been reading your posts for a long time and honestly respect almost everything you have to say. In this case your opinion is simply inaccurate and misleading.

When you say bleach worked better what you mean is it worked better for you. If you were able to ask the wood for it's opinion I can assure you that it would disagree.

Best of Luck

Russell

Off subject. . .What kind of bird is that sitting on your head?

[Lou Beach 14]

Is there a website for Extreme Solutions?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jim,

EFC is also a light duty stripper. We have used both plain percarbs and EFC, and there is a difference in performance. Both kinds of products have their place.

If someone is new to wood care, I would suggest using a percarb over bleach, simply because if you are inexpereinced in the use of chems, you will not get wood care instruction off of the bottle of clorox, whereas you will get instructions specific to wood care with EFC. Also the manufacturer's tech support is specific to wood. It would take time to learn how to use bleach (clorox) the way Jim does.

Lou, www.esiproducts.net

Beth

[Degraffreed 21]

Boy, am I confused. Use Bleach.. do not use bleach. Use sodium percarb .. Dont use sodium percarb.

I used bleach and dawn in the first few decks I did and the results.. compared to the before, was good. Then started reading post and was told percarb was the way to go. Then purchased 40lbs of percarb from Espec and seem to do the job but not the final finished looked I wanted,compared to Beth, Rods and some others.

I know there is a learning curve and I am fine with that. I then do some test steps, as mentioned in previous post and the the result were mediocre. I read what Russell say about the structure, chemistry and products to use to get the results I am looking for.

Now I am wondering is there REALLY a difference in his product line, compared to what I am using now? Does his line have ingredients that retains the "Oils, Fats " in the wood? Maybe this is what is not LEFT in the wood when I do my process. He could be correct in his statement that I could be " Burning " the oils out of the wood. I will figure this out one way or another. Thanks for all the posts. I will not let this end until I succeed on the results I am looking for.

Beth, I have tried to post pic in the threads.. and it comes back as file to large. How can I decrease the files size and could you explain the process in laymans term? I am a not that computer savy as some.

I will send the pics of the test step at that time.

DeGraffreed

[Russell Cissell 65]

Then purchased 40lbs of percarb from Espec and seem to do the job but not the final finished looked I wanted,compared to Beth, Rods and some others.

I know there is a learning curve and I am fine with that. I then do some test steps, as mentioned in previous post and the the result were mediocre. I read what Russell say about the structure, chemistry and products to use to get the results I am looking for.

Now I am wondering is there REALLY a difference in his product line, compared to what I am using now? Does his line have ingredients that retains the "Oils, Fats " in the wood? Maybe this is what is not LEFT in the wood when I do my process. He could be correct in his statement that I could be " Burning " the oils out of the wood.

You have answered your own question.

The results you see in Beth's work is the result of the difference in our product line vs. some of the others. My intentions are to promote ESI's products because I know how they are formulated and I believe in their quality. The goal is to help you be as successful as possible so that you will continue to use the products long term.

Until you have seen the difference for yourself all I can do is try to educate you as to why they are better suited for wood restoration. The only thing that I can say at this point is that if you use the same products as Beth and Rod, in the same professional manner it stands to reason that you can expect the same quality results.

If you still have any doubts, feel free to give me a call. If you don't like any of the ESI wood restoration products for any reason you will receive a full refund of the purchase price. ESI is a 100% satisfaction guarantee.

Best of Luck

Russell Cissell

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

When you open the image in any photo editor look for a feature that says something like "Image Size" and see if you can reduce it. That's the best I can tellyou without knowing what image software you have.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Using espec's restore will get you some good results but nothing like other percarbs.

There are 2-

Disodiumperoxydicarbonate and Disodiumhydroxycarbonate.

Espec's is the second one.

Doesnt quite give the same results as the first and definitely not the same as EFC-38 which has some caustic builders to give it the ability to strip some old stains.

We like the way EFC-38 and Citralic work to give a good clean look to the wood.

Bob's F-10 works great for cleaning touch up decks and mildewey/grey weathered

wood.

Rod~

[James 624]

Russ ,I'm sorry but the bleach worked better- I'm not sorry for knowing how to use it- I use your products and they work fine- Making paper is a total different process than cleaning wood !! Bleach is an oxidizer . If you get control of it? It will just remove the weather wood easier than pre-carbs ..

Happy wood cleaning........

[James 624]

For Woodkey's it's better to start with precarbs. A woodkey is a wood care rookie.....

[squirtgun 122]

James,

Please share the knowledge of bleach use....I view it as another tool in our arsenal if I can master it's use.

[Lou Beach 14]

This is really a good thread.

Thanks to Freed for sharing his struggles with getting it right refinishing decks.

The responses have been very good and I can see that their are multiple ways to skin a cat, so to speak, and achieve the results you are happy with.

[Henry B. 4]

Hey Lou,

Have you started power washing yet? I heard you found yourself a rig and I'm looking forward to hearing about your progress!

[seymore 90]

Did somebody say bleach?..:lgbounces

Hey Jim hope you have a bleaching summer!:cheers:

I hear ya getting your Slate Gray shipping to you?

[Russell Cissell 65]

James-

Used the right way bleach can certainly help to remove dead wood by breaking the bond that the lignin has with the decayed cellulose. The key as you point out is in the "control." It has to be a matter of correct concentration and correct duration. Bleach can also aid in the removal of mold and mildew.

My fear is always this. . When used incorrectly and at the wrong concentration bleach can quickly damage the good wood below the decayed surface. I have heard contractors say the best way to restore a deck is with 15% bleach. It just makes me cringe.

Best of Luck

Russell

So what about that bird?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Hey Jim,

I have a question for you...

If someone who is new, can learn to use a percarb, and get the results you get with bleach, why should they change to something that is more harsh on the lignin? Just because someone learns on a percarb and gets great results doesn't make them a newbie just because they don't use bleach. Just means they use the tool they chose very effectively.

We get stunning results with our tools, and have shown many others how to do this as well. The products by ESI and PressureTek coupled with our skill get us our results. But, you do have to have a good understanding of wood, and what happens to it under different conditions, and each deck as I am sure you know is not just like the next one. Wood varies, application of a prior product or a prior service by another company varies too.

Beth