January 2006 deck we did

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

We had a warm spell in January, it got into the upper 60's here.

This deck was cleaned with HD-80, at about 4 oz to the gallon, neutralized with Citralic, and sealed while wet with Wood Tux Wet. Please note in the photos the deck is not dry yet.

Beth

[jnoden 15]

Hey Beth,

The deck looks great. Did you cut the wood tux with water about 50/50? I was reading that it could be cut with water or mineral spirits but does one help it to perfom better in application or durability? Lastly I was wondering if you guys have used the tinting kit yet and what your thoughts are on it.

Sorry about all the questions but I plan on buying a couple pails to try out this spring and so I just want to make sure that I know what Im doing. If I am going to spray it I understand that it needs to be thinned out also but was wondering how to best do this.

[Russell Cissell 65]

jnoden

I am jumping in for Beth here. I just got off the phone with her and she is pretty busy this morning.

I beleive that on that job they applied the Wood-Tux WET right out of the pail.

Regarding your question about the performance of Water vs. Spirits as a thinner. . .

If your only goal is to actually reduce the viscosity of the product, for instance if you've got a low flow tip on your sprayer, your best choice is spirits. It takes far less mineral spirits to reduce the viscosity of the product.

If your goal is to extend the product, for instance you want to double the amount of product you have to save money, your best choice is to extend it with water.

Another reason you may want to extend with water is for very hard wood application such as Ipe. Thinning with mineral spirits would help the product penetrate into the dense substrate, however the higher the spirit content the more likely you are to have flashing issues.

Reducing with water allows you to apply a thinner product that will penetrate better and at the same time, slows down the curing process thereby reducing the risk of flashing.

Regarding your question about the tinting kit. . .

The stock Warm Honey gold color is by far the most popular color. I don't believe that Beth&Rod have ever had to use a tint kit. I know they've got a job coming up next month where they will likely be tinting some of the Wood-Tux.

The tint kit is simply pure pigment that is added by way of droppers that ESI provides with the tint kit. The droppers measure out 3 ml and it is typically just a squirt or two per gallon. For instance to go from warm honey gold to a brown sugar color you would add a squirt of black.

If you would like a list of contractors who are familiar with using the tint system, shoot me an e-mail with TINT in the subject line. If you prefer, feel free to give me a call with any questions you have. I am happy to help.

Best of Luck

Russell

imrcc1@aol.com

636-288-8512

[James 624]

Russ as the warrentor of WTW how are you going guarantee the product against abuse. It seems that your pushing the fact you can extend and thin the product. Most sealers void the guarantee when diliuted. Will you have an instruction sheet with the product and a sliding scale of effectiveness by how much water you add?

[Rfitz 14]

I am very confused as well, is this a oil based product or a water based sealer..? is this a latex, acrylic, combo..?

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jim

Wood-Tux WET is in our professional series. That means that it will be treated just as the rest of our professional products are.

We don't mass market our professional series. It's sold exclusively to contractors. Professional wood restoration contractors understand they are not going to profit by applying a product in a situation where it will not meet their customers expectations.

Logic dictates that if you thin the product to the point of failure, your customer is not going to be happy.

Most product guarantees, if you read the fine print, guarantee the product is free of defect. In the case that you do find a performance guarantee you can almost bet it will cost you more in time and handling charges then you will recover on the claim.

We offer our contractor customers a satisfaction guarantee. That means we do our best to educate contractors about our products. We do the best we can to explain how to use them and what to expect in their particular climate. We offer a toll free hotline that is printed on every pail. We select distributors who understand the wood restoration process and when and where our products fit in. We trust our customers to follow the principals and practices of proper wood restoration.

From there it goes on a case by case basis. That would work something like this. A contractor calls dissatisfied. We would help to better educate them so they better understand how to use the product and what to expect. We would replace the product.

If the same customer has the same issue with the same product repeatedly, we would likely suggest that our product is not a good match for their methods and refund their money. This has never happened, so again, I would have to say it would be treated on a case by case basis.

There will probably never be a sheet that goes out with the Wood-Tux WET. As a rule of thumb if I would expect the product to last four (4) years on a particular job and if I cut it 1:1, then I would schedule the maintenance visit for two (2) years. As you know it will really depend on the type of wood, how it was applied, the climate, the conditions of full sun or constant shade and any other number of infinite variables.

If you have a question about a particular project it would be best to call prior to bidding it.

Best of Luck!

Russell

[Russell Cissell 65]

Wood-Tux WET is an oil based product.

[James 624]

Russ I have a certification for a product that when there was a customer complaint to the company. I go check it out for them. These were wood restoration pro's who did the job? NOT!! I couldn't believe what was done in some case's. I get calls all the time to solve problems for contractors , builders and home owners and some sealing companies.

Most deck sealing companies are slam banger's. In and outer's! I think your leaving your self open to legal issue's by marketing you can extend the product and save money by the dilution method. Just a thought to run by your legal department.

[Russell Cissell 65]

James

I can appreciate your point. It's easy to blur the line between what is customer support and what is marketing. There are a number of reasons you might want to add water to the product prior to application.

Saving money was just the first that came to mind. You may want to add water to increase coverage. You may want to add water to thicken the product. You may want to add water to thin the product. You may want to add water to slow the dry time. You may want to add water to alter the rate of penetration. This is a relatively versatile product. On the other hand, you may use the product for years and never have the need/desire to alter it at all.

The point is, if you are going to alter a Wood-Tux WET, you should know why you are doing it and what to expect. More importantly, your customer (property owner) should know what to expect before you apply it to their wood. If you have any questions you should call the Contractor Hotline prior to alteration.

Always consult you local VOC regulations prior to thinning Wood-Tux WET with mineral spirits. Wood-Tux WET is VOC compliant in all 50 states. If you alter the product with mineral spirits you may no longer be compliant in your area. If you have any questions about VOC regulations call the Contractor Hotline.

For anyone who is new to using Wood-Tux WET, I would say follow the directions on the label. If you have any questions, call the Contractor Hotline. Always do a test patch to determine the products suitability for the project at hand.

To anyone who is a slam banging in-and-outer I would not recommend using our products. Our products will most likely not be compatible with your restoration practices.

To everyone else. . .

Best of Luck

[Jarrod 22]

It seems kinda odd that you can apply an oil based stain to a wet deck. How does that work? I would love to be able to do a deck in 1 trip.

[Jarrod 22]

Where is the web site for wood tux?

[seymore 90]

http://www.wrapi.org/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ESI&Category_Code=WRP

[Rfitz 14]

As far as the 1 trip method, I think that maybe exaggeration..? I think they actually mean damp, not immediately after washing with puddles of water standing on the wood, I think what the manufacturer means is say on a very warm windy day, you may be able to return 4-8 hours after washing and apply wood Tux to damp wood not soaking puddling decks, this should be clarified, and Jarod I am with you Oil and water do not usually mix, and I do emphasize usually, I have not tried this product, so I cant say for sure..??

[Russell Cissell 65]

Jarrod-

It works very much the same as applying it to a dry deck. It will cause the finish to turn a funky yellow color when it is first applied. This is caused by the way the light refracts off the water in the wood. As the moisture is purged the finish will take on a nice even appearance. You can see this if you look back through all the photos that Beth posted.

Feel free to give me a call if you would like a more detailed description. I've also got another photo series available if you like. Just send me an e-mail with WET in the subject line.

[Jarrod 22]

Thanx Russell.

[CLASSICPW 14]

how did you keep the hd-80 from taking the paint off the fence? BTW it looks great!

[PressurePros 248]

As far as the 1 trip method, I think that maybe exaggeration..? I think they actually mean damp, not immediately after washing with puddles of water standing on the wood, I think what the manufacturer means is say on a very warm windy day, you may be able to return 4-8 hours after washing and apply wood Tux to damp wood not soaking puddling decks, this should be clarified, and Jarod I am with you Oil and water do not usually mix, and I do emphasize usually, I have not tried this product, so I cant say for sure..??

I don't want to step on Russell's toes but I will share my experience. Wood Tux is not like anything else you have worked with. It is an oil. It somehow mixes with water and stays suspended (eventually it will separate so stirring is neccessary on a larger project)

My experience (confirmed by conversations with Extreme Solutions) is that you can apply to saturated wood. We brush the standind puddles and go to town. The water helps the product penetrate. I am going 85% Wood Tux this year. If I get decent results with it on hardwoods like ipe I will use it exclusively. The tinting system is not the curse some may think. It allows you to offer custom colors. It's also very easy to mix. The best part is when a neighbor comes by and comments what a beautiful color is on the deck you just used, you can confedently respond that it is exclusive to your company.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jamie,

We applied the HD-80 at 4 oz to the gallon via pump up. Getting it on the fence was not a problem. Just control the angle of the spray from the tip and maybe use a shield if you need to and you are all set.

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The deck was washed after we washed the facing side of the townhouse and sealed it directly afterwards. All within about 2 hours. Pushed the excess water off the deck and applied straight from the pail (stain tray actually). It does look weird going on and it can be disturbing to see the color initially but it comes out as you see in the pics.

One must remember that this is new technology (top secret ;) ) and as with all new stuff there is a learning curve to go through, but once you understand it the rest becomes S.O.P.

btw Jamie, the painted fence was wet from the wash. This limited any effect that hd-80 could have had on the fence. All was neutralized afterwards and rinsed thoroughly. Does this help?

Rod!~

[jnoden 15]

If the deck is wet (no standing puddles) and you want to use a deckster sprayer, do you cut it about 2:1 (2 parts sealer 1 part water) so that it will not clog the pump and spray better and can you expect it to last at least 2 yrs like other stains?

[PressurePros 248]

This is just me personally.. I would not cut it more than 5:1 if the deck I were doing was wet. It can be sprayed through a Deckster right out of the can. If the deck is dry I cut it 5:2. I am a little wary of overcompromising the pigmentation and mildewcides at a 50/50 cut.

[Russell Cissell 65]

A contractor/customer sent this picture to me this week. It is a Cambara deck that he stained last fall. He was going back to look at a few drip marks that were left on a stone paver. Nothing like going out of your way to satisfy your customers!

I asked him to take a couple pictures for me while he was there. If you were surfing TGS last year you may remember this deck, I think I posted it under the title Wood-Tux on Cambara. I know it had Cambara in the title.

Cambara, like Ipe is a dense wood and it can prove challenging for any finish. This is primarily because it can be difficult for the product to achieve good substrate penetration. Anyone who has worked Cambara can tell you how quickly most finishes will fail on this very hard wood. On this job Wood-Tux was applied 3:2

The following comment was included with the picture.

Here is a Cambara deck done between 5-6 months ago. There to see oil drops on stone - you know the story. I can say that without hesitation WTW is holding up better than any other product on the market.This deck gets full afternoon sun. The deck beside this one (Cambara also) gets no afternoon sun - looks even better

I am not trying to make a suggestion as to how you use the product. It is intended to be used per the directions on the pail. Some contractors just prefer to alter the product for some jobs.

[Russell Cissell 65]

It would be both difficult and voluminous if I would attempt to explain exactly why Wood-Tux WET works in this format. We would have to get into all sorts of yawney topics like specific gravity, displacement and cohesion.

Explaining how it works is really quite simple. We've found a way to convince oil that it is not always in it's best interest to float on water. If you get the product excited about doing it's job, it's very desire to bond with the wood will make it heavier than water. For this reason it doesn't matter how wet the wood is. This product wants to work.

What you have to keep in mind is, the water has to come out of the wood for the stain to get in. No two objects can occupy the same point in space. If we ever figure a way around that problem, we will have you staining decks from your couch!

If the wood is very wet to start with, like if you just washed it, you will want to keep an eye on it, as the stain goes into the wood water can begin to puddle on the surface. If it puddles bad, this can really slow down the curing process and increase the chances of an unsatisfactory condition. You want to brush out or disburse any water puddles that do form.

In addition, the more water there is in the wood, the longer it is going to take for the stain to work into the wood. For example if you just spray a thin coat on the wood, it may look very nice when it dries, however may not last as long. If you spray on a thick application and allow it to dwell on the surface for some time and then remove the excess you will have a much longer lasting finish.

You should try to let the wood take as much product as possible to achieve the maximum service life.

We recommend that contractors who are applying Wood-Tux WET to a very wet deck for the first time stay for a minimum of 30 min after applying the stain. Once you are sure there is going to be no puddling it is safe to leave. As you become more familiar with using Wood-Tux WET on very wet wood you may wish to reduce your wait time. It also helps to develop an eye for which way the boards are crowned. This will help you predetermine if the conditions are conducive to puddling.

If you have questions about crowning, shoot me an e-mail with "crown" in the subject line and I will fire you back a description.

I hope this helps!

Russell

[Rfitz 14]

The pics of the deck look great, does anyone know what the moisture content was the day they stained it..? also, how does one justify the cost of almost double my leading sytains I currently use..? I know I would have to pass this on to the customer, but bottom line is I tell my customers at the going price I now charge I tell them they will get on average 1-3 years on the Horizontal surfaces and 2-4 years on the verticles, but this keeps my residual income coming in for years to come, now If I tell my customers it will be say for example an extra .50 to .75 cents a sq ft for a Product like Wood Tux however they will gain an extra year or two on their finish, who in the long run loses..? I think it will be the contractor.. Me...? Unless I am missing something, My most profitable service I offer is maintenace on decks, no going to do the bids, no time trying to sell the job, I use half the soap, and half the stain, no sanding, etc.. but yet I charge on average 70% of the original price, for not even 50% of chemicals and labor on maintenace jobs..? Just thought I would ask..?

[Russell Cissell 65]

I've been in the wood restoration business for a while now. There are more and more professionals entering the industry each year. Each year the industry improves and the contractors become more efficient. All the while the building industry grows exponentially faster. Nearly every new home built has a deck and there is no shortage of new natural wood sided homes and log cabins.

There are several different business models available to those contractors who choose to enter the wood restoration industry. One thing that we can be certain of, our products will not be a suitable match for every model.

I didn't ask what the moisture was on that deck, but we've stained plenty that would bury the meter.

Obviously the only way to justify the price of a product is with value. So the question becomes what is the value of Wood-Tux WET.

First I would say that it was designed specifically for professionals working in the wood restoration industry. With this product in your tool kit you can work more days out of each restoration season. You no longer have to reschedule as many jobs due to rain.

The second value is you have less stress created from rescheduling jobs. No one likes to call customers and tell them they will have to be rescheduled due to "inclement weather." This is an inconvenience to the customer and can lead to lost jobs.

Third and also related, no one likes the financial "blackouts" created when all you can do is clean and strip and the weather won't let you seal. Year after year I hear contractors struggle to get through the spring rains. It is always the same story, 15, 18, 25 decks ready to finish but it rains every morning or every afternoon. With Wood-Tux WET you get the job done and the money is in the bank instead of on paper.

These delays can also lead to additional work. The longer a deck goes without being finished the greater the chances it will have to be rewashed prior to completing the job. I'm sure anyone who's worked in wood restoration has returned to find a deck covered with muddy dog prints. It can be difficult to explain to the customer that you will have to charge them more because you have to wash their deck again.

Next I would point to the very high quality formulation. Simply put you will get more coverage from this product and it will work for you under a wider range of conditions.

The look. . . it goes without saying this product draws in the referral work.

Flexibility is another value. Think of the money you save not having to return to a small deck if you can wash it and turn around and seal it. This was not the intended use of the product, but there are contractors that think it's awfully handy.

When it comes time for maintenance, the value compounds. After the quick wash, as needed, you freshen up with a light coat of stain and you are on your way, again no return trip.

Finally I would ask you to examine carefully price vs. cost. There is no doubt that you can find products with a lower price on the pail but you have to be careful to watch what the product costs to complete the job. If you use twice as much or more, was it really half the price?

I would argue, give Wood-Tux WET one season and tell me how you could justify not having it in your arsenal.

Hope that's the answer you were looking for.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rfitz,

Those are very good questions.

In regard to who loses out, its not that way at all. Its a win-win. The customer gets a better protected deck and you get an easier to deal with deck to maintain. You dont have to strip it each time and the recoat uses less product.

1-3 years is typical of many quality products, WTW has demonstrated at 2 years very strong integrity and in fact, some of our customers have chosen to wait another year because it held up so well. This was verified by a return trip for additional work and we looked at some of these decks and were gratified to see that it was holding up so well. Yeah, there was dirt or mildew but the sealer was still intact.

What does this mean for the contractor? The customer will have confidence in you because the results were as promised. You get the repeat business, you get the reputation that they will tell others about generating referrals.

They get the best bang for their buck. They dont have to spend an arm and a leg each time to keep it protected.

-I didn't check the WMC. It was just washed with water pooling on top that we had to push off with a stain pad before applying.

Very little sanding may be required on the handrails if any on maintenance trips. Mostly in the case of animal attack or badly dried out/aged wood. Since the maintenance requires the horizontals primarily, the customer now has a choice in how much to spend. Do the verticals too or just the horizontals? If its just the horizontals, think of how little time it takes to go back and recoat! Even if you do the verticals too, the time spent is like 1/2 because you are just touching up and it goes on so quick and easily.

The biggest + is that anyone who can see that deck from a distance will want theirs to look just like it because it stands out that well in appearance.

It sells itself.

Rod!~