Cabot's SPF

[PatrickM 14]

Just got back from a seminar given by a Cabot's rep on their products. He made a strong case for their SPF acrylic and claims it to be a better product for decks than Cabot's Australian Timber Oil (which I know is a favorite of many of you). Wet application, wash and stain in the same day, lasts longer, easier to maintain...

It all sounds great but I know many of you don't like acrylics. So what didn't he tell us and does anyone have evperience with this product.

Patrick

[PressurePros 248]

Horrible product, peels within a year. I have had at least 15 homeowner's call me to strip it off. I have another forum on which I answer questions from homeowners on deck care. Several people got the same advice from Cabot's and less han one year later they all regret following over zealous advice. I would recommend stering clear and looking into using Wood Tux Wet if you want to complete a deck in one day.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rep = Salesman

Acrylic = nightmare

Did the rep by chance go in to much detail about finish removal?

Or was that not a part of the discussion....

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Field experience is a better gauge.

Rep's do not have that.

I would listen to someone who has actually worked with the product before someone who has just been "informed" about it.

There is a big difference and I know that opinions change after working with a product in the field.

Maybe that is something that all mfr's should do...get there people out there and actually work with it before they allow them to talk about it.

Rod!~

[James 624]

ken what did you use to strip spf?

[steve r 14]

Id bet 90% of the reps dont even know how to apply stain or havent never done so.The reps only dictate what there told buy others .acrylic a no no no in my words .Customers will call back within a few months complaining of peeling and such.My 2 cents worth

[PatrickM 14]

I asked about the difficulies with stripping. He said yes stripping is difficult if you use a product designed for oil based stains. But Cabot's makes a stripper just for acrylics and it gives the same results you would have stripping an oil based product with a product designed for oil based products.

As for experience he started out with a pressure washing business in south Florida and used his own experience as the basis for his presentation.

Everything I know about acrylics tells me they won't work for decks. But I want to play devils advocate here. I've tried Wood Tux Wet and it's a great product. But transportation costs and my not wanting to get into mixing colors makes aa locally available alternative with a color choice very apealing.

[PressurePros 248]

I bid four times the rate of a normal strip job and only had two takers. I used a product from ABR (it's a potassium hydroxide based gel) hand brushed and rolled on with a two hour dwell time and it was still a nightmare. I only do these types of jobs pre or post peak season.

I have a customer that insisted I use it and like an idiot I caved in. I coated the deck once last June, the floorboards once again in late October and I will be back again in May this year to touch up again. I committed to the job so I will honor my guarantee but NEVER AGAIN.

[PressurePros 248]

I asked about the difficulies with stripping. He said yes stripping is difficult if you use a product designed for oil based stains. But Cabot's makes a stripper just for acrylics and it gives the same results you would have stripping an oil based product with a product designed for oil based products.

As for experience he started out with a pressure washing business in south Florida and used his own experience as the basis for his presentation.

Everything I know about acrylics tells me they won't work for decks. But I want to play devils advocate here. I've tried Wood Tux Wet and it's a great product. But transportation costs and my not wanting to get into mixing colors makes aa locally available alternative with a color choice very apealing.

I think you may be looking a little short sighted. The Cabot's retails for $42+ per gallon. With a contractor account you may pay $33 after sales tax. The prices are the same (Wood Tux is less actually) and the quality of product is not even in the same league. I'm not trying to dash your thoughts on this but please listen to a person that has had experience with the product. This rep may have liked getting decks done in a day and may even get a short time longer than a year before it is a peeling, flaking mess, but the product was just introduced last year so there isn't a track record. Of course the same can be argued of Wood Tux, but I trust the science of WTW a bit more. Your call.

[Celeste 341]

If you are determined to use the acrylic stuff, I can at least attest to two years performance so far of the Flood Spa & Deck. We have it on a deck and an arbor (in our back yard) and the finish is flawless except for the bird doo doo. We are watching it but since it still looks so nice, we're not willing to try a strip yet. That is a one day process but you need to charge accordingly for product.

Celeste

[Able Hands 14]

Went to the same seminar...

The rep must have stated 15 times that he has had SPF on his own deck for two years. Is it possible that he got an early sample from Cabot's to act as a guinea pig?

I'll grant you that I'm new to this and I don't know much of anything, but this guy at least seemed to know what he was talking about.

I've never done any deck work (at least not properly), and I have 4 to do for family members. One is in OK shape, the other three are horrible. What can I put on these decks to offer two years of service? Think I may wait to see how SPF plays out for a little while before I risk making my whole family mad at me. I'm going to do the work for free and they are paying for chems and stain.

Matt

[PatrickM 14]

Matt - didn't recognize you without your fish or I would have said hello.

Ken - yours is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. I am new to this and logic tells me to steer clear of this product. But there were guys sitting around me who have as much experience as anybody here who were going for this sales pitch. Made me doubt what I knew to be true. Although if you do use this product again you need to find another supply. Retails for $27 a gallon here.

And Russel if your out there (and we know you are) need more than one color choice for WTW. Just 3 choices would do. But I am afraid of the tinting kit. Even Henry Ford couldn't get away with "you can have any color you want as long as it's black."

[RPetry 564]

Patrick,

Please let us know the stripper that the Cabot rep claimed "gives the same results you would have stripping an oil based product with a product designed for oil based products".

Acrylics are the bane of wood restoration contractors. They can be stripped but the only effective products that I have found cost ~$200 per 5 gals, need to be applied in a thick layer using a very powerful commercial airless, and need a very long dwell time.

Any manufacturer that offers an effective acrylic stripper at less cost, that is easier to apply, and is environmentally acceptable, will make a fortune.

[PatrickM 14]

Rick

Cabots makes 2 strippers called simply "Wood stripper for latex products" and "Wood stripper for oil products." Retail is about $32 / gal.

I've asked the rep to join this thread. The peeling problems could come from not doing a wet application. This is not a product that "can" be applied wet, it is a product that "must" be applied wet and I don't think Cabot has done a very good job of getting that point out to their customers.

[RPetry 564]

Hey Patrick,

I hope Cabot's does not charge $32 per gal. for their stripper for oil finishes. Sodium hydroxide strippers such HD-80 or F-18 that many wood contractors use are extremely effective on semi-trans oil stains and cost less than $2 per gal.!

As far as I know and have experienced, latex finishes are an entirely different animal from acrylics. Kind of like the difference between rubber and plastic. I know nothing of their SPF line but I do know that a very good latex stripper, Biowsh Stripex-L, will not make a dent in older Cabot acrylic decking stains.

I've seen decks that are literally self-destructing due to acrylic finishes. One, a huge cedar deck was rotting from the inside out, including vertical wood. The wood on another PT deck had swelled to the point of misalignment and deck boards lifting from joists. I shudder at the thought of putting any acrylic on wet wood. You are trapping moisture inside the wood causing rot in cedar and potential swelling in other species.

I get the impression that you are somewhat new to exterior wood. Please do a search on "acrylic" on this web site. The nightmares posted by other contractors and myself may have you reconsidering using any acrylic finish on decks.

[Russell Cissell 65]

And Russel if your out there (and we know you are) need more than one color choice for WTW. Just 3 choices would do. But I am afraid of the tinting kit. Even Henry Ford couldn't get away with "you can have any color you want as long as it's black."

Patrick

Don't be afraid. It is really very easy to use.

What if everyone wanted their own color car?

Russell Cissell

imrcc1@aol.com

636-288-8512

[Russell Cissell 65]

I swear I know how to count to three, I just haven't quite figured out how to use a computer.

[RPetry 564]

Dyslexia... Proof read panel 3, you also can't spell!

Come on Russ, too much stain fumes!

[bforbis 14]

I was in the Cabot's dealership near me a couple of weeks ago. He would not even endorse the Cabot's brand strippers based on performance and feedback from those that have used them.

I have applied Cabot's SPF to a couple of decks early last year, so far no issues, but it sincerely concerns me that there have been problems with peeling within 1 year!

Was the deck that peeled so prematurely one that had the coating applied while the deck was actually wet?

If so, do you know what the moisture content was at time of application?

When I researched it's use, I was actually directed to apply on a pre-wetted surface! I was sceptical about doing that and went with my gut feeling and applied to dry surface instead.

[Chappy 138]

I did a conco complex, 12 decks side by side. I think it was an acrylic sealer on them. Some of the decks absolutely would not be stripped, except with a paint stripper. ended up just rough sanding the acrylic and using a solid stain.

Ive used flood on several docks and decks, but too soon to tell what the long term is. supposedly, just sand any area that is peeling and reapply another coat. One homeowner wanted this done to his self done dock. It looked terrible, and 2 more coats didnt help much. Im sure it wasnt prepped or applied right in the first place. But I wasnt about to try to strip it and start from scratch.

Thats when I looked into wood tux again. just used the tints and they work great. customize it to any darkness, red or brown. then you dont have to order pails for small jobs that will only use 2-3 gallons.

[Kevin H. 14]

Patrick,

Cabot SPF and other acrylic products do work well. Some problems could be happening from using improper cleaning solutions. SPF is one of those products that not all cleaners are compatable with the product. The wrong prep product can lead to improper adhession.

[PatrickM 14]

Kevin

Cabots SPF looks like walking through a mine field to me.

If applied to dry wood it peels.

If applied to wet wood it traps mosture and rots the wood from the inside out.

Requires special prep products and can only be stripped with a very expensive product.

Overspray has to removed immediately or it's there forever.

Russell - your tinting kit doesn't look so bad by comparison.

[Kevin H. 14]

Patrick,

SPF is very easy to work with, you just have to try it.

It does not trap moisture into the wood. It is a breathable/flexable finish.

As for stripping, I have yet to strip a project that I have done. I have stripped a lot of other finishes.

And overspray is an issue no matter what product is used. The nice thing with SPF is that a wet rag will get it early or else denatured alcohol after it dries.

As I mentioned before, it may not be for everyone. I just know that for me it is easy to use, very durable and I can keep my schedule a whole lot better.

Thanks,

Kevin

[PressurePros 248]

I can't speak for the homeonwers that have used the product as their prep was probably incorrect. But here is a point. It's a homeonwer product. I think Cabot's has been around long enough to know homeowners rarely follow directions. The moon has to be aligned with Jupiter, the cat has to be sleeping with one paw in the air, the deck has to have 100 cfm of under deck cross ventialtion and make sure you wet the deck before you apply it.

I followed the directions to a tee on the one deck it is on and I have been watching it carefully. Deck furniture moves... scraaape.. up it comes. fugeddaboutit, not for me.

I am really tired and cranky so don't take this the wrong way, but to the guys that are afraid of a tint system... :banghead: are you a professional? Are you willing to set yourself apart? Those that aren't growing and learning are stagnant. If you have done wood restoration you know your colors. Don't be afraid to learn something new. You fill a pipette with black... Squirt.. You fill up four with red... squirt, squit, squirt, squirt...stir.

[bforbis 14]

I have applied Cabot's SPF on better than a dozen decks, various sizes, conditions etc. and used the same cleaning technique (as best possible) on each. I was concerned abou the posts that stated they had issues with it coming up. All of the decks are nearby. So I called or went by about 8 of those I did and all feedback was that everyone was very pleased with the look, performance etc of the finished product. No indications of problems, in a little over 2.5 years on the oldest. (Thank goodness)

Several asked that I come by and do a rinse for a spring cleaning kind of thing, and all were very appreciative for the followup/courtesy call.

I would be interested in trying to pinpoint what exactly is the issue that was had by those where it is failing. To me to just say it is a poor product, it does not last etc is not helping to understand how to work with the product.

Please don't get me wrong....just wanting to be non-subjective and professional about a product. With all the experience on this board, I am sure we could figure out what the real issue is, educate each other and move forward.

Ken I had to borrow this!

:banghead: are you a professional?

[PressurePros 248]

Brent, just add this (™) next time lol

Okay, here is the only issue I have... if it does fail or if and when the time does come to have to strip it, what does one do then? A medium sized deck with multilayered acrylic can tie you up for two full days just stripping it.