2 party system

[Jeff 232]

OK this should get some of you going. Election time is coming and hopefully the Dems will take control of Congress. So get out there and vote.

You all know Im no fan of our Prez, but I'm even less of a fan of congress. This country needs to have Dem control to help with the checks & balances in our goverment. There has been total Republican control for to long and the Republican, yes and Dems too only care about getting reelected

Bush can say and do anything he wants and has hurt us and alienated pretty much in the whole world except Britian. All his evel doers like Iran & Korea are doing what ever they want and are laughing at us, because they know we really can't do that much because we are bogged down in Iraq a war that was only going to cost us 10 million dollars (oops bad #'s)

I've read where some even some in the military say we are doing good,. Over 1/2 the Iraqee people want to see us dead. We have our military on extened tours.

The Republicians are out of control. Like Bush said he wants to get to the bottom of the CIA leak, its bulls--t it was his own people, but he sidestepped that by playing word games. Rumsfeld shouldnt still be there, he didnt have a plan past a few months, DUHHHHH.

Aberrooff is a crook and so arent a bunch of the Republican he gave money to. We have a Republican thats a peodophile who just resigned.

Allen Mr. Macacca who said he just made up the word, I knew that word since I was a little boy, He says he's never talked racial slurs. NEVER!!!!!! Who's he kidding, just be honest. Then he hides and lies that he's part Jew, get over it.

I dont want the Dems in to make things misrable for all, just to have a check & balance system again. One party in control of everything is not good for our country

So what do you all think.

JL

[RyanH 14]

I'm tired of the whole "I got mine, you get yours," mentality. Doesnt anyone even have a heart anymore?

Having a heart and giving from your heart is completely different than using the power of your vote to steal money from others. I've argued this issue with co-workers before. They say I have a diminished view of society because they think I don't want to help my fellow man. Quite the contrary. I have no problem helping--voluntarily. I give money that nobody even knows about with NO expectation in return. I do have a problem, however, when someone else not only tells me I should be helping others, but then digs into my pocket at the point of a gun and takes it from me.

"Point of a gun," you ask? Just try to not pay your taxes and see what the ultimate conclusion is. You will be investigated. Turn that down and you will be arrested. Fight that and the guns come out. Slippery slope, sure, but the end result is the same. Our government uses force to take what they want from citizens. Citizens realized they can use the power of the government to take from other citizens. Want more money from your daily job? Vote for a minimum wage increase. Don't bother friggin ASKING for a raise...don't bother trying to improve your skill set and EARN more...just vote for it. It's very easy to sit back and say our government should do this and we should all do that, but you keep missing the point...you can't GIVE without first TAKING. And it is my CHOICE to not have my efforts taken from me against my will.

The statistics on minimum wage vs. small businesses are inherently flawed. The implicit assumption there is that all small businesses pay minimum wage. I've yet to work for a small firm that paid minimum wage. I've worked for 3 small businesses and have known owners of 7 more....all have started pay out at around $10 per hour. Why? Because they want to retain talent they have trained. They understand that once someone has been trained they are a more valuable commodity. There is a shortage of people trained in their field. There isn't a steep learning curve to operating a cash register or taking food orders, so the job pool for these positions pay less.

Do I think current minimum wage is too low to live on? Sure. There is an inherent motiviation to grow above that, or atleast there should be if someone is going to complain about it being too low. It's all about standards of living.

Nobody ever said you have a right to a particular lifestyle.....from what I remember it goes something like "The Right to Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Well, nothing in our laws prevents any of those. All americans enjoy the same liberty and freedom to do what they choose. All americans have life (unless they don't...err). And all americans have the same freedom to pursue happiness. What some do with this freedom is not as wise as others. THAT isn't my problem.

[jnoden 15]

I agree with you Jon and it is too bad that many employers do not think like you. I hear what you are saying about pre-employment screening and I agree with you but that is not quite what i was trying to get at. Usually raising the requirements or pre employment expectations for a labor job will only make the turnover rate worst. Raising the salaries will almost always make it better. I will also always try to hire the best canidate for the job but I bet you the person who has the diploma, great work history etc will not be back next year powerwashing, packing or doing the janitorial work.

I have worked in factories for years and the owners do not even know the names of their employees let alone anything personal about them. They care about making profit not wether or not you as an employee can support your family. Its not just my experience either. It is the corporate mentality. These people account for over half the money made in this country. they generally drive the republican party (more so than not) and also have the money to make things happen politically to work in their favor.

[Jeff 232]

According to the dept of labor, 18 states have a higher min wage than the fed rate. Why should the feds be dictating anything. Its a lot easier to get your state to do anything than the fed govmnt. If you guys feel so strongly about it petetion your state to raise its rate.

As for the higher rate jobs being subject to screening, thats the case most everywhere. Why should I pay more for someone unless he fits my needs. The diff in 9 and min wage is $8000/year. With employee turnover as high as it is, employers have every right to be more discriminating in thier hires.

if I can get someone with a few more skills, who doesnt jump jobs, has a clean driving record, who doesnt come to work high, Ill pay more.

"I'm tired of the whole "I got mine, you get yours," mentality. Doesnt anyone even have a heart anymore?"

I dont have mine, Im still working for it. I work alone, when I bring in some one wether day or temp labor, I always give them more than the paycheck, I always try to make it at least 10/hr. sometimes, much more depending on how they did. Start at home. you pay your guys a living wage if thats your belief, and convince other businesess to do the same. Keep gov. out of my pocket. I will do whats right regardless of what someone tells me.

by the way, how do you tip. did you know min wage for wait staff is typically $2-3/hr? Do you only give 15%. If you do, for shame. and shut up about federal min wage.

My mother was a waitress for 20+ years I know how to tip. Why shouldnt min wage be adjusted for cost of living.

You guys **** me off so much. You all say oh its a great world , work hard to make more money, get educated, start at the bottom and work your way up. You dont know crap about the real world obviously. There are less jobs around to move up to, theres very little training available. A bump up in min wage wont hurt anything. Not everyone is smart and as wonderful as you guys are

Wait until (god forbid) something happens to you or some one you love or care for. What if you got hurt and you couldnt ever work again and your wife couldnt work for medical reasons, what you wouldnt take Goverment assistance. All of a sudden you could pay your hospital bills and they wouldnt be able to do a life saving surgery on you or someone you love because you cant pay for. Dont tell me you wouldnt take the Gov money for the surgery, or to feed your family. I cant believe you all are so heartless and uncompassionate. Its alright to support the country of Iraq, but not our own,

I went from making $30 an hour in the union through the 80's to 96 then in 1999 I had to take work at $6.00 an hr, I sure wish the min wage was higher It would of helped if I could of made $7

You never know whats going to happen in your life, it may be you someday that has to swallow your pride and ask for help. You better hope its there if you need it

Jon Im not picking on you, I just happen to click on your post

VOTE DEM IN 2006

[kevinw 14]

Kevin,

But making up numbers makes you look like your pushing your point through BS, which I can smell from here, and is an insult to the intelligence with a computer and access to Google.

Larry

On the subject of an educated electorate...we went through that during the civil rights movement, and the Supreme Court found that it was attempt to deny the rights of American citizens (wave flag here). A more common philosophy is that the uninformed voters will cancel each other out. For every uneducated welfare recipient in Chicago, there is an uneducated gun-toting xenophobe in Alabama.

Truly though, when I see that someone posts on this board (and believes) that there are more illegal immigrant births than to citizens in Texas, I wonder if there shouldn't be some sort of test as well.

Larry,

I posted regarding the number of births...and you referred to me as "uneducated electorate" that needs to take some sort of test.

When I post a few links that I was able to grab before I left the office, you tell me I'm making up numbers and claim that it's BS. Have we met? Have I done something to offend you...other than offering a different opinion? My impression is that you're taking the path of "shoot the messenger since he has a different opinion than mine".

At the least, I'm due an apology. At this point, I don't really care whether you find the information credible. You decide how many is too many. But to your point...these number are real...you find them if you're interested...or not.

Starr County, TX - 25 births/month in 1 hospital...that's 300 in a small hospital in Harlingen, Tx

Let's get to some metro hospitals.

Parkland Hospital - 11, 500 last year in 1 hospital

Houston, TX - 2 hospitals with over nearly 8,500 last year.

That's 4 hospitals totalling 20,300 illegal immigrant births. How many hospitals are in TX?

I'm through with this...I don't mind different opinions...intolerance is irritating. Try replacing the rhetoric and anecdote in YOUR next post...a little less opinion and little more meat.

kevinw

[Jeff 232]

What about congressman Foley???? Should he get his pension?

I didnt even know there was Gay Republicans. Man that must of freaked out some Compassionate Conservatives, you Republicans allow gays , your sooooooooo liberal

What about Lidsey Graham SC, Im pretty sure he's gay.

To the republicans on this BB. Would you vote a man in congress if you knew they were GAY???????

[Don L 14]

Hey Jeff,

Now I didn't wade through all the posts,so I may have missed something,but glory man!IMOHO,when are you going to stop being a union apologist ,and start thinking like a business owner?

I am not trying to start any s### with you,so don't get all riled,but it seems to me that you spent more time unioning,than running a biz,correct me if I am wrong.

Minimum wage is not an entitlement,it is an ENTRY LEVEL wage!!!!!

How can you swallow the Federal gov"t dictating to you (a bussiness owner) what you will pay an employee!!It is no different than welfare,only "santioned" by the feds,imposing their will upon you the owner.I simply don't understand.Help me to see your view.I am sure that you ,at this point are much more sucessful than I am in this business.I defer to you in this aspect,but I will be gall darned to understand your loyality to unions at this point in your life.A vehicle costs 40,000...have you considered why?

Again,I am not ragging on you,just curious.Let me know.Thanks ,and make a million,would you.P.S. Telling me to vote dem,is like telling me to convert to islam.so hypercivically zelous..not going to happen.Have a great night.

[Celeste 341]

What about congressman Foley???? Should he get his pension? No, he should serve time in prison if he is tried and found guilty.

I didnt even know there was Gay Republicans. Man that must of freaked out some Compassionate Conservatives, you Republicans allow gays , your sooooooooo liberal What does one's sexual preference have to do with ability to do a job?

What about Lidsey Graham SC, Im pretty sure he's gay.

To the republicans on this BB. Would you vote a man in congress if you knew they were GAY???????

Criminals should not (a) get into office and (b) if they do sneak through, NOT be allowed to benefit when they get caught. Regular criminals don't get pensions or even severance pay for being stupid.

For the record, I am opposed to same *** marriages, however, I do agree with the same *** union (as someone called it about 12 pages ago) and for the same reasons. I personally don't care to see men hanging on one another or women being openly sexually affectionate, however, what goes on behind closed doors in one's relationship, ie watching PORN, is your business. I absolutely do not see any relevance in whether or not a gay man or woman should not be elected if they are qualified for the position.

Jeff, you're not saying outloud that you would be a discriminatory employer are you?

Celeste

[Don L 14]

Jeff,I'm sorry I blew right by your last post.My response is...Romans 1.18-32.Why would you vote to give them the right to represent you?Curious.

[kevinw 14]

Here's a quote from the Economic Policy Institute:

Recently, the Fiscal Policy Institute (FPI) released a study of the impact of higher minimum wages on small businesses4. Their analysis focuses on various outcomes for businesses with less than 50 employees, comparing these outcomes between states with minimum wages above the Federal level and those at the Federal level. If the theory that higher minimum wages hurt small businesses is correct, then we would expect there to be less growth in such enterprises in states with higher minimum wages. In fact, as shown in Figure 5, the opposite is the case.

• Between 1998 and 2001, the number of small business establishments grew twice as quickly in states with higher minimum wages (3.1% vs. 1.6%).

• Employment grew 1.5% more quickly in high minimum wage states.

• Annual and average payroll growth was also faster in higher minimum wage states.

These stats are a good example of making a conclusion based on partial facts. I could say that out of 100 children whose allowance was doubled at age 10, 60% were millionaires by 45. Based on the conclusion you've reached from your statistics, you should double your child's allowance at age 10. You should have asked who the fathers of the 60% were...they may have been millionaires to start with!

There's a lot more to achieving these results than raising minimum wage. What were the business that grew twice as quickly? What were the states that grew 1.5% more quickly? What were the states with faster payroll growth?

If the answer is North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska...that could be interesting. If the answer is states with thriving economies, the businesses in question were in hot markets...it skews the numbers significantly. Would you expect a new pizza chain in Lincoln, Nebraska to fare as well as a new pizza chain in Beverly Hills, CA? Would you expect a new cellular telephone retailer to fare as well in Fargo as LA? It's the old statistics game...you can make them say whatever you want them to say. You can also pick and choose which numbers you want to accept, and which ones you want to throw sticks at.

You're not the only that has hoe'd the row. It's not being smug to say that raising minimum wage isn't the answer.

As an employer, I offer any potential employee a salary that considers what they bring to the job. If it's only a strong back and a willingness to learn, they start at the bottom (above minimum wage) and are given the opportunity to prove themselves and move up the ladder. If they don't, then they are given a courteous, professional dismissal...with a reference in most cases.

I've hired, and fired, my share of starters that only wanted to make gas/beer money. I've hired, and kept, and promoted, and given raises to those that want to make the investment to do something with their lives.

I think most employers realize that hiring is an investment, and try to keep good employees. We take an interest in their personal lives, we offer assistance when we can.

I just dismissed a minimum wage mentality employee. His attendance was sporadic, his work was hit or miss, he required constant supervision, he had a very negative attitude...but he was always there on payday. He was very good at making sure he was paid for every minute he worked...even those when he was sleeping in the truck while his co-worker was working. Every Monday was a hard luck story...don't feel well today, car broke down, alarm didn't go off. I gave him one chance after another.

And sorry guys, many economists view the labor market for minimum wage workers to be largely inelastic. It's doubtful the any Burger King will be laying anyone off anytime soon, even if the minimun wage were to increase. At least around here, they're struggling to fill the positions they have.

Big generality there! Many economists would qualify that statement a little...and many others would disagree. In thriving economies, minimum wage is replaced by supply and demand. I've seen $500 hiring bonuses at Wendy's in my area...minimum wage isn't even considered.

In the total economy, starting wage (minimum acceptable wage) is driven by the economy and labor pool. Those studies show that starting wage employees have the highest turnover rate, regardless of job growth opportunity. Great studies to read, but they don't support your position.

[Jeff 232]

Hey Jeff,

Now I didn't wade through all the posts,so I may have missed something,but glory man!IMOHO,when are you going to stop being a union apologist ,and start thinking like a business owner?

I am not trying to start any s### with you,so don't get all riled,but it seems to me that you spent more time unioning,than running a biz,correct me if I am wrong.

Minimum wage is not an entitlement,it is an ENTRY LEVEL wage!!!!!

How can you swallow the Federal gov"t dictating to you (a bussiness owner) what you will pay an employee!!It is no different than welfare,only "santioned" by the feds,imposing their will upon you the owner.I simply don't understand.Help me to see your view.I am sure that you ,at this point are much more sucessful than I am in this business.I defer to you in this aspect,but I will be gall darned to understand your loyality to unions at this point in your life.A vehicle costs 40,000...have you considered why?

Again,I am not ragging on you,just curious.Let me know.Thanks ,and make a million,would you.P.S. Telling me to vote dem,is like telling me to convert to islam.so hypercivically zelous..not going to happen.Have a great night.

Don I have no problem with your question. Min wage isnt just a starting wage, its a guide for many other workers who make more than Min wage. The guy that makes, $6, 7, 8, 9, $10 an hr. Many of these people are good hard workers, but uneducated or its a 2nd & 3rd job. I just simply believe people who give a days work, should get a decents days wage.

I figure if people make more money in their daily wages they will have more money to spend, more money to get their houses washed etc.

Vehicles cost 40K so what. Why because cheaper foreign car companies dont pay the benifits to their employees or have retirement funds

If average blue collar workers made more money , maybe this country wouldnt be as morally screwed up. Think back to the 40's, 50's, 60's. When a man could get out of high school or not even graduate high school and get a decent paying job. Now think back that man could support his family within a few years of getting in the work force. GUESS WHO WAS HOME WATCHING THE KIDS....... YES MOM. Mom taught the kids daily right from wrong, how to do chores around the house, manners and the had supervision. Now most/many mothers have to work. Wheres the parent to teach these children how to do the chores that will train them to have a good work ethic. we ask why kids are killing kids or why kids dont have any work ethic, why kids /girls are getting pregnant at 11, 12, 13. Theres NO ONE WATCHING our most valuable asset our children. Because we have to all work just to get by in some cases . A father could work have health insurance, dental and some retirement, now most dont get crap or at least much less.

Whats the matter with a living wage and if you keep the min wage down it keeps other wages down. Both parents work, yes many want all the perks, but many just want a little home a car and a happy family. You cant have it when the fathers job gets sent oversees so we can have cheaper computer parts, or cheaper cars . Now dad has to take a cheaper paying job work 3 jobs and moms working too.

Im babbling, but I as a business owner think if people thought there was much of a future for a lowend blue collar worker people would work harder, get a better work ethic and I'd have better people to pick from

I'm from up north Boston and people made good wages and most people worked hard. Now I live down south and the same jobs that paid $15-$20 an hour up north pay $6, $7...$10 an hour. I think the low wages in the south, takes the hope away from people. Many see no matter how hard they work they're never going to make GOOD money. So over time they said why work hard if your going to get paid crap. I know many who feel that way, some dont give a crap , some/most still work very hard

As a business man I think give a man hope. I have 2 guys I started them at $8 & $9 an hour 15 months ago and now the are both making $14.00 am I losing money. NO. I know a couple PW companies that start their guys at $8, $9 and wont give them a raise for a year or so and then $.75 maybe a buck. MY WORKERS MAKE ME MONEY. Believe it or not $14 is a good wage around here. I plan on giving these guys $1.00 raise every year. I show them hopes to get more money they show me a good days work

If wages were up, more mothers could stay home, more kids would learn , more workers would work hard for you

Start thinking like a business owner???????? I am, you keep thinking that a worker is just a commodity, just another tool and not a man with pride and BILLS you'll just have a so so worker at most.

Companies used to offer their workers hope, there isnt much hope out the for the average blue collar worker anymore. Years ago companies were very successful and CEO only at most made 20 X's the amount of the top paid worker and They werent making 2, 3, 4, 10. 25 million. Creed and a global market has brought down the lowend worker, the blue collar worker and many proessionals. Why so the top 1-2% can get richer. I have nothing wrong with someone being a millionaire, but dont do it n the backs of the very citizen that make there products and buy the product

I'll keep paying my guys well and will keep giving them raises and hope to give them some bennies in the next 2 years and I promise you they'll keep working hard for me and they'll actually be able to almost pay all their bills. My company will keep growing and that extra couple bucks an hour wont stop me from putting another worker on, because of these guys I can keep adding jobs and making more $$$$$$$

Min wage isnt an entitlement , but neither is disability that YOU could get if you fell off a ladder and broke your back and couldnt pay your bills. What you wouldnt take SS Disability if you had no money to feed your family?

Most american workers feel no sense of security anymore The 40's 50's 70's you did because it wasnt such a cut throat time

Its not loyalty to unions this point of my life its loyalty to my fellow man and this country

Islam & democrats thats funny, so your saying even if a great man came along and he was a democrat you wouldnt vote for him. See that just seems very extreme almost like muslim extremist.

I've seen all aspects of life and I like the world I want more than the party who just wants to take care of the top 2%. Dont fool yourself the president & republican congress are just democrats in sheeps clothing( by your thinking as I see it). Your side is robbing us blind up in congress, they are spending spending spending . At last Clinton WIPED out the deficit and cut Welfare, and cut Goverment Jobs . Bush just keeps spending and lying to us all

I will be successful and feel good about it

VOTE DEM IN 2006, Get The Bums Out

[Don L 14]

Jeff,

Some good points...but.Rep/Dem,I agree that under those headings,there is little difference.It is the fine points of philosophies ,the details that really make the difference.Now,I am going to be brief(I am at 21 hrs ,as we speak,not as sharp as I would like to be,sorry I got sucked in).The point about both parents working...our oldest is 15,youngest is 2,there are 3 in between.My wife works 1 day per week,sometimes half day more.She has been home teaching them what you spoke of.It is available in this day and time,regardless of social trends.

Jeff,you tell me I think of worker's as a commodity.I find that nearly insulting,but we're having a civil discourse,so no offence taken.They are the building blocks of our business's prosperity.That doesn't mean I,or you are responsible for feeding them popcorn,or paying for their insurance,or putting their kids through college!That is their responsibility.A workman is worthy of his wage.No dissagreement here.You say so what to 40,000 vehicles!

I will offer this to you...mega corps/unions ,are the same animal.Both have conspired to destroy the small bizmen,along with gov't(both sides of the isle,although I am slanted towards one side)WE are their greatest fear.This country was driven by entrepenureship at it's onset.We are the only ones that can weaken their grip on commerce,because of the advantage of our mobility to truely service the customer.Both mega corps,and (forgive me)unions must be broken.Completely.Not by anarchy,but by COMPETITIOIN!

I don't know if this will ever come to pass,but if not,Lord Jesus,come quickley.The gov dictating what we do as private enterprises must be crushed.Government by the people,for the people...I read that somewhere before.Where was it...? Oh,btw,I wasn't being snide when I said make a million...I meant it.

[Jeff 232]

Criminals should not (a) get into office and (b) if they do sneak through, NOT be allowed to benefit when they get caught. Regular criminals don't get pensions or even severance pay for being stupid.

For the record, I am opposed to same *** marriages, however, I do agree with the same *** union (as someone called it about 12 pages ago) and for the same reasons. I personally don't care to see men hanging on one another or women being openly sexually affectionate, however, what goes on behind closed doors in one's relationship, ie watching PORN, is your business. I absolutely do not see any relevance in whether or not a gay man or woman should not be elected if they are qualified for the position.

Jeff, you're not saying outloud that you would be a discriminatory employer are you?

Celeste

Celeste,

Basically I was being a smart ass. Republicans to me are very intolerant, so I was asking if a republican would vote for a gay.

I've known a lot of gays when I was younger working in the food service biz, there were a lot of gays some I liked some I couldnt stand, yes because they were gay and pushed it, walked around like peter pan, hit on every guy in sight etc. The more gays comes out of the closet, the more they want. Why should they get anything different from anyone else.

If my gay cousin came to me for a job. I wouldnt give him one. Why because he's a freak, very weird and very fem.

Now if 2 hot looking lesbians were kissing and having *** in front of me while applying for a job with my company, I'd hire them. See Celeste I'm not Homophobic LOL

[Jeff 232]

Jeff,I'm sorry I blew right by your last post.My response is...Romans 1.18-32.Why would you vote to give them the right to represent you?Curious.

I probably wouldnt vote for a gay man, Definitly wouldnt, but if I didnt know he was gay and he did a good job and then I found out he was gay I wouldnt want him out just because he's gay.

[Jeff 232]

Jeff,

Some good points...but.Rep/Dem,I agree that under those headings,there is little difference.It is the fine points of philosophies ,the details that really make the difference.Now,I am going to be brief(I am at 21 hrs ,as we speak,not as sharp as I would like to be,sorry I got sucked in).The point about both parents working...our oldest is 15,youngest is 2,there are 3 in between.My wife works 1 day per week,sometimes half day more.She has been home teaching them what you spoke of.It is available in this day and time,regardless of social trends.

Jeff,you tell me I think of worker's as a commodity.I find that nearly insulting,but we're having a civil discourse,so no offence taken.They are the building blocks of our business's prosperity.That doesn't mean I,or you are responsible for feeding them popcorn,or paying for their insurance,or putting their kids through college!That is their responsibility.A workman is worthy of his wage.No dissagreement here.You say so what to 40,000 vehicles!

I will offer this to you...mega corps/unions ,are the same animal.Both have conspired to destroy the small bizmen,along with gov't(both sides of the isle,although I am slanted towards one side)WE are their greatest fear.This country was driven by entrepenureship at it's onset.We are the only ones that can weaken their grip on commerce,because of the advantage of our mobility to truely service the customer.Both mega corps,and (forgive me)unions must be broken.Completely.Not by anarchy,but by COMPETITIOIN!

I don't know if this will ever come to pass,but if not,Lord Jesus,come quickley.The gov dictating what we do as private enterprises must be crushed.Government by the people,for the people...I read that somewhere before.Where was it...? Oh,btw,I wasn't being snide when I said make a million...I meant it.

Don, althou my life is very good and sounds like yours is too. I think this whole world is going to hell in a hand basket. I wish for the best for all, thats all. I just see different way to get there. I agree unions got greedy many of them and Corps are the greediest now, along with are politicians that are corrupt in many aways.

I just worry about my children in the future.

[Celeste 341]

Celeste,

Basically I was being a smart ass. Republicans to me are very intolerant, so I was asking if a republican would vote for a gay.

I've known a lot of gays when I was younger working in the food service biz, there were a lot of gays some I liked some I couldnt stand, yes because they were gay and pushed it, walked around like peter pan, hit on every guy in sight etc. The more gays comes out of the closet, the more they want. Why should they get anything different from anyone else.

If my gay cousin came to me for a job. I wouldnt give him one. Why because he's a freak, very weird and very fem.

Now if 2 hot looking lesbians were kissing and having *** in front of me while applying for a job with my company, I'd hire them. See Celeste I'm not Homophobic LOL

Oh, okay :)

[Deck Guy 14]

Larry,

I'm through with this...I don't mind different opinions...intolerance is irritating. Try replacing the rhetoric and anecdote in YOUR next post...a little less opinion and little more meat.

kevinw

Kevin,

You're right, I sound like a class A jerk. I was/am just incredulous that even after you find articles which apperar to disprove you, and providing links so I can see them as well, you stand by your position. It's not about differing opinions though. You made a statement, and the facts simply don't support it. I'm just calling you on it.

Is it really possible that Texas had more illegal immigrant births than the whole rest of the country combined? You tried to make a point, and the numbers don't support it even though I gave you statistics from the articles you quoted.

If I believed you were right, and that these were facts, I would be on your side of this debate. I think your fears aren't grounded in facts, which explains why you feel the way you do.

Can't we assume that certain communities have larger migrant populations than others (it's true)? Can't we also assume that if I were writing an article about births to illegal immigrants, I would choose hospitals in those same communities to make my point? Of course I would. Is the illegal immigrant population in Amarillo (Texas panhandle) the same as Laredo (border town)? Those aren't the "average" numbers, they represent the glaring examples of what the author is trying to point out.

So here's the "meat," as you say...

You may need a calculator for this, but according to numbers in the articles you cited, along with birth rates reported by the Texas Bureau of Vital Statistics, Texas would have to have doubled it's overall birth rate (384,000 in 2004) from 2004 to 2005, and every one of the additional births would have to be to illegal immigrants. (since there were only 360,000 illegal immigrant births nationwide last year). Not only that, but every single illegal immigrant birth nationwide (as reported in your articles) would have to have occurred in Texas. Is that what you are saying has occurred? All I'm asking for is little critical thinking.

I'm just trying to understand your math.

Larry

[Deck Guy 14]

Kevin,

You also said:

Thanks to Dems, we have legalized abortions for any reason whatsoever. Over 60% of abortions are provided as a means of birth control to middle class, and upper middle class women between 25 and 40, tens of thousands every year...and the taxpayers are paying for it.

Again, if that were true, how horrible it would be. Unfortunately though, you are way off base. In fact, acording to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, one of the leading sources for information relating to abortion demographics, 52% of abortions are for women under 25, and 19% are for teenagers. Kinda blows your middle and upper-middles class between 24 and 40 stuff out of the water. There is also some great contradictory (to you) information regarding incomes and such, but I didn't feel like drawing you a picture which you're certain to disregard anyway since it doesn't fit your views of this terrible awful world we live in created by democrats. Here's a link to a 50+ page Powerpoint outlining their findings.

http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf

Again, it's not about me wanting to believe or not believe something you've posted. Two plus two equals four, period. I don't agree or disagree with facts, they're just facts.

I understand why you feel the way you do about things, since you have been greatly misinformed by someone. I'm just trying to help you utilize the critical thought procees to understand that possibly you have been mislead.

[Don L 14]

Jeff ,

I hear ya.This world is a wicked place,and will only get worse.Don't let our true adversary whisper you out of the truth.There is a man who lives,the very Son of the living God,who has never lied.He has given all those who believe on His name this comfort...I have overcome the world.Fear not Jeff,regardless of the circumstances.Raise up your children in the way they they should go,and when they are old,they will not depart from it.It is written.These words are spirit,and they are life.Keep your chin up,and remember ,fear not,brother.Take care.

[JFife 14]

Why does everyone think the world is so bad?? Go back to WWII, I heard an astounding number one time on how many children were born to women whose fathers were thousands of miles away. When I heard the figure it was from a source I wouldn't challenge, but the numbers were astounding enough that I wouldn't quote them as fact without something to back them up. But that was consider "the golden era" of the US. Wanna read about some really vile cultures?? Open that black book sitting on your nightstand. Think things are bad now?? Read the Old Testament.

People wale about how awful the world has become...it's just because the News has learned that we LIKE that, it SELLS, so they tell us MORE of it. FoxNews is my mainpage, and I always check on the top ten stories. Amazes me at what they'll be.....12 people trampled in China, boat flips in Panama killing 9, gunmen opens fire in Jeruselum market, wounds 11, kills self. Who cares?? (Deckguy, that may answer you question about whether any of us actually have a "heart" anymore:)) But seriously?? That's just life. Those things happen, and you can choose to be fascinated by it and dwell on it, and scare your children into fearing the world---or you can go out and live your life. Fear and anxiety are terrible things to instill in your kids, and they start absorbing it from Day 1.

[Jeff 232]

Why does everyone think the world is so bad?? Go back to WWII, I heard an astounding number one time on how many children were born to women whose fathers were thousands of miles away. When I heard the figure it was from a source I wouldn't challenge, but the numbers were astounding enough that I wouldn't quote them as fact without something to back them up. But that was consider "the golden era" of the US. Wanna read about some really vile cultures?? Open that black book sitting on your nightstand. Think things are bad now?? Read the Old Testament.

People wale about how awful the world has become...it's just because the News has learned that we LIKE that, it SELLS, so they tell us MORE of it. FoxNews is my mainpage, and I always check on the top ten stories. Amazes me at what they'll be.....12 people trampled in China, boat flips in Panama killing 9, gunmen opens fire in Jeruselum market, wounds 11, kills self. Who cares?? (Deckguy, that may answer you question about whether any of us actually have a "heart" anymore:)) But seriously?? That's just life. Those things happen, and you can choose to be fascinated by it and dwell on it, and scare your children into fearing the world---or you can go out and live your life. Fear and anxiety are terrible things to instill in your kids, and they start absorbing it from Day 1.

Jon I agree to enjoy and live life Totally. Its just now with kids I worry what I see will get worse. Pedophiles, murders for no reasons, kids having babies, school killings, AIDS. A whole muslim region that wants us in the US dead it is a scary world. With a lot of social problems

You ask any law enforcement and they'll tell you the day is gone when you can walk in a mall or walmart and not have to hold onto yur childrens hand every minute for the fear of molestation or abduction

Its like many think life is a big screwed up violent video game. When I was a young boy my parents didnt have to worry about some sick perv with night vision goggles stalking me and abducting & killing me. Bad things happened way back when, just not as much as now.

You have to educate your children on stranger danger , you have to prepare them

I dont dwell on it with my boy , but we do talk about it you have to. I dont care about some boat flipping in Panama or trampling in China. But I do fear some killing perv grabbing one of my beautiful children. I have to!

My kids are going to learn to love life like my wife & I do. but they'll know to beware and they'll learn to protect themselves using there minds & muscle

Life is Good

JL

[kevinw 14]

Kevin,

Again, if that were true, how horrible it would be. Unfortunately though, you are way off base. In fact, acording to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, one of the leading sources for information relating to abortion demographics, 52% of abortions are for women under 25, and 19% are for teenagers.

You need to check your sources again. It's pretty simple to see interesting statistics and jump to conclusions. Similar to the statistics you posted regarding states that pay above minimum wage. The statistics are interesting, but you can't necessarily take them at face value.

In this instance, check the organization whose statistics you are quoting. Check what they represent, and what point they are trying to validate. Then, go a step further and check who is funding them.

The numbers you've quoted indicate that the abortion issue is benign. It's not. You've qualified Guttmacher as a "leading source for information relating to abortion demographics". Expand your research a little. Your source is a little dubious.

[kevinw 14]

Kevin,

In fact, acording to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, one of the leading sources for information relating to abortion demographics, 52% of abortions are for women under 25, and 19% are for teenagers.

"The Guttmacher Institute has played a leading role in the movement for sexual and reproductive health and rights since the Institute's inception in 1968. Guttmacher's nearly four decades of experience demonstrates that scientific evidence-when reliably collected and analyzed, compellingly presented and systematically disseminated-can make a difference in policies, programs and medical practice.

The Institute is named after an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood, Dr. Alan Guttmacher. The Institute has offices in both New York City and Washington, D.C.. As of 2005, it has an annual revenue of $7.9 million and expenses of $9.1 million, with an asset reserve of $15.6 million dollars. [1]"

What would you expect them to say?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Why does everyone think the world is so bad?? Go back to WWII, I heard an astounding number one time on how many children were born to women whose fathers were thousands of miles away. When I heard the figure it was from a source I wouldn't challenge, but the numbers were astounding enough that I wouldn't quote them as fact without something to back them up. But that was consider "the golden era" of the US. Wanna read about some really vile cultures?? Open that black book sitting on your nightstand. Think things are bad now?? Read the Old Testament.

People wale about how awful the world has become...it's just because the News has learned that we LIKE that, it SELLS, so they tell us MORE of it. FoxNews is my mainpage, and I always check on the top ten stories. Amazes me at what they'll be.....12 people trampled in China, boat flips in Panama killing 9, gunmen opens fire in Jerusalem market, wounds 11, kills self. Who cares?? (Deckguy, that may answer you question about whether any of us actually have a "heart" anymore:)) But seriously?? That's just life. Those things happen, and you can choose to be fascinated by it and dwell on it, and scare your children into fearing the world---or you can go out and live your life. Fear and anxiety are terrible things to instill in your kids, and they start absorbing it from Day 1.

You must have a tough skin Jon. When I see this type of question I look at it from what our children are being forced to endure and it is getting to the point that they won't have a decent future with the current state of things. News or not, It is still happening! Crime for example in our nations capitol is #1 in the nation!!! What should that be telling us? That our economy isn't good? No, that the system is failing! People may find other excuses to reason it out and support a way for them to feel better about it but it is only a conditioned response we are executing to keep the system in place. An anti-virus program if you will. Go ahead, make fun of it everyone. We are running the defense program every time we do and we are running it now. Try not to run it instead.

In another larger scope: Wars for petroleum, wars for religion, wars for land, money, power etc...not to mention here in the states where our elected officials deceive the populace for their own agenda's. Many expose's have been conducted showing our highest officials saying one thing in news conferences and doing another behind the scenes and I don't buy their unconstitutional excuses either. That is in jeopardy as well. The constitution will be overthrown in the name of fighting terrorism and national security. Bank on it!!! It is already happening. Remember the presidents un-authorized wire taps? The patriot act? Fear is being used against us to take away our freedoms. Who is the "real" terrorist? The one from afar or the one in our front yard? Answer=both

Yeah, we have gotten to the point that we are so numb that it takes catastrophe to get our attention. I hold onto hope with a commercial by a company who's ad shows people doing "the right things" in its content, despite the fact that they are selling something the message is still there. The principal of the thing is that this used to be a great country and now it is being run into the ground. The world has changed since I was a child and those changes came about because of what our leaders have been doing and what the populace as a whole has not been doing...being responsible towards the constitution, the government and the people it has elected to uphold it since. Who voted for the little oil tycoon who paid for his own campaign just to send a message? Sorry, they didn't have a "None of the above" option!!!

Yes, our leaders put people like Saddam into power, now they took his away. Remember the Falklands, the Grenadines, Panama, etc... Who is next? Afghanistan? Korea?, Iran? Jerusalem?

Which other country has oil exploration rights yet to be claimed? The oil will run out just like the blood in your body will run out if you let it. There is only a finite amount and those in power are looking for it and every way to secure it. Iraq was the beginning.

We turn a blind eye to the fact that our country is responsible for the state of things and go about our little lives in pursuit of the holy dollar and technology is our religion. Think not? Ask yourself this: Why do you protect your electronic gadgets so much then? Why do they mean so much to you? Why is there pain associated with their loss? What would you do without your TV, Cable, Satellite, Internet, Cell phone, Video games, Ipod, Gps, and the list goes on. Where does God figure in this??? About an hour a week on Sundays, and what does anyone do with the other 111 waking hours of their weeks days? We create machines to make our lives easier yet they complicate it even more when they break down because of our dependancy on them.

Regarding the news and TV:

We are numb!!! What used to be outrageous, sinful and unfit for children's eyes is now in children's shows and cartoons. Oh, yeah, the rating system is just to make sure a parent is there to 'watch it with them'! Kids are the biggest audience for cop shows where running from the law is the only theme. Ever notice that with the exception of 'extreme makeover home edition' there are no shows or programs that focus entirely on the positive?

Even this one has the tangent of tragedy in it in order to make it capture the attention of those who feed off of others misfortune. We have been conditioned to be this way.

What difference does it make to vote either way? These people are in it for themselves and don't listen to the people but polls and the delegates sway their interests for private means.

Wake up everybody. Sitting around complaining doesn't do a thing, and trying to get anywhere in the bureaucracy red tape is a nightmare to unfold. Voting anymore is done largely via repetition of impression by those who see a name on a sign so many times as they go to work each day and decide which party they are going to vote for in that way. Not by what they know about the candidate because they are too busy in their own lives to be able to really responsibly devote themselves to a significantly important function in this nation. It is merely a formality at this point and our leaders know it. For them it is a numbers game and how many people can they convince they will do something of current interest once in office.

Oh, the excuses are formulating here...conditioning once again.

I try to look at things in the simplest of terms of what they are and have looked into many things for the good in them but mostly to find them supported by the bad. Others may not have a problem with the state of things but it is very disturbing to me to think of what our future will be like if all these things that one may think are not so bad continue. If we all don't do anything about them, they will perpetuate and before long it will be affecting each of our lives directly and we won't be able to ignore it any longer because we will have no choice but to deal with it on some level.

We have been conditioned to be the audience, all the worlds a stage, it is time to become part of the cast. Let's make Positive things happen for our children's future by what we do today. We all know that we don't really have the time with all the demands placed on our lives to educate ourselves on the issues, the candidates, the ever changing bureaucracy rules and laws...but!!!.......

If you do nothing, then you have no right to complain when it happens to you.

Rod!~

[Deck Guy 14]

"The Guttmacher Institute has played a leading role in the movement for sexual and reproductive health and rights since the Institute's inception in 1968. Guttmacher's nearly four decades of experience demonstrates that scientific evidence-when reliably collected and analyzed, compellingly presented and systematically disseminated-can make a difference in policies, programs and medical practice.

The Institute is named after an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood, Dr. Alan Guttmacher. The Institute has offices in both New York City and Washington, D.C.. As of 2005, it has an annual revenue of $7.9 million and expenses of $9.1 million, with an asset reserve of $15.6 million dollars. [1]"

What would you expect them to say?

I understand your point Kevin, but were not talking about them asking opinions on something, thereby being able to skew the question in a certain way. We discussed that in another thread, and I concede that in certain instances, the questions can be misleading (or leading). But in this case, we are talking about a persons age. That would be a difficult one to confuse people on. Race is a another tough one to skew by opinion. Further, how would adjusting these figures suit their cause? I would think that they would have a stronger case for legal abortion if in fact, your assumptions were correct. Middle class and upper-middle class people vote and have money to lobby!

Lastly, I believe this information is not by way of a poll of those having abortions. I understand that this info is supplied by the clinincs based on their medical records in accordance with federal reporting guidelines, not the people themselves.

Concerned Women for America also indirectly mis-quoted this particular study on their web page, and this is perhaps where you got your mis-information. It's interesting that given their mission statement, they would be willing to use this study as a source. Of course, thay are not very good at math, and if they figure out that they misunderstood the results, they will surely cast stones at this organmization as well. Their mission statement is:

"We are the nation's largest public policy women's organization with a rich 27-year history of helping our members across the country bring Biblical principles into all levels of public policy. " Their headline states that the majority of women having abortions are over 25, but they then quote the Beverly LaHaye Institute, which then quotes this study, which then says that 48% (not the majority) of women having abortions were over 25. I've posted a copy of their newsletter, and in no way are they supporters of abortion.

How about posting where you got your info? Maybe it is from a more credible and unbiased source, and we can get the correct data from you. The problem here is that either of us are unlikely to find anyone willing to spend the time to compile data on this who does not represent a certain point of view. Would you be willing to accept data from the US government on this if I can dig it up?

Abortion Rates.pdf

[Jeff 232]

You must have a tough skin Jon. When I see this type of question I look at it from what our children are being forced to endure and it is getting to the point that they won't have a decent future with the current state of things. News or not, It is still happening! Crime for example in our nations capitol is #1 in the nation!!! What should that be telling us? That our economy isn't good? No, that the system is failing! People may find other excuses to reason it out and support a way for them to feel better about it but it is only a conditioned response we are executing to keep the system in place. An anti-virus program if you will. Go ahead, make fun of it everyone. We are running the defense program every time we do and we are running it now. Try not to run it instead.

In another larger scope: Wars for petroleum, wars for religion, wars for land, money, power etc...not to mention here in the states where our elected officials deceive the populace for their own agenda's. Many expose's have been conducted showing our highest officials saying one thing in news conferences and doing another behind the scenes and I don't buy their unconstitutional excuses either. That is in jeopardy as well. The constitution will be overthrown in the name of fighting terrorism and national security. Bank on it!!! It is already happening. Remember the presidents un-authorized wire taps? The patriot act? Fear is being used against us to take away our freedoms. Who is the "real" terrorist? The one from afar or the one in our front yard? Answer=both

Yeah, we have gotten to the point that we are so numb that it takes catastrophe to get our attention. I hold onto hope with a commercial by a company who's ad shows people doing "the right things" in its content, despite the fact that they are selling something the message is still there. The principal of the thing is that this used to be a great country and now it is being run into the ground. The world has changed since I was a child and those changes came about because of what our leaders have been doing and what the populace as a whole has not been doing...being responsible towards the constitution, the government and the people it has elected to uphold it since. Who voted for the little oil tycoon who paid for his own campaign just to send a message? Sorry, they didn't have a "None of the above" option!!!

Yes, our leaders put people like Saddam into power, now they took his away. Remember the Falklands, the Grenadines, Panama, etc... Who is next? Afghanistan? Korea?, Iran? Jerusalem?

Which other country has oil exploration rights yet to be claimed? The oil will run out just like the blood in your body will run out if you let it. There is only a finite amount and those in power are looking for it and every way to secure it. Iraq was the beginning.

We turn a blind eye to the fact that our country is responsible for the state of things and go about our little lives in pursuit of the holy dollar and technology is our religion. Think not? Ask yourself this: Why do you protect your electronic gadgets so much then? Why do they mean so much to you? Why is there pain associated with their loss? What would you do without your TV, Cable, Satellite, Internet, Cell phone, Video games, Ipod, Gps, and the list goes on. Where does God figure in this??? About an hour a week on Sundays, and what does anyone do with the other 111 waking hours of their weeks days? We create machines to make our lives easier yet they complicate it even more when they break down because of our dependancy on them.

Regarding the news and TV:

We are numb!!! What used to be outrageous, sinful and unfit for children's eyes is now in children's shows and cartoons. Oh, yeah, the rating system is just to make sure a parent is there to 'watch it with them'! Kids are the biggest audience for cop shows where running from the law is the only theme. Ever notice that with the exception of 'extreme makeover home edition' there are no shows or programs that focus entirely on the positive?

Even this one has the tangent of tragedy in it in order to make it capture the attention of those who feed off of others misfortune. We have been conditioned to be this way.

What difference does it make to vote either way? These people are in it for themselves and don't listen to the people but polls and the delegates sway their interests for private means.

Wake up everybody. Sitting around complaining doesn't do a thing, and trying to get anywhere in the bureaucracy red tape is a nightmare to unfold. Voting anymore is done largely via repetition of impression by those who see a name on a sign so many times as they go to work each day and decide which party they are going to vote for in that way. Not by what they know about the candidate because they are too busy in their own lives to be able to really responsibly devote themselves to a significantly important function in this nation. It is merely a formality at this point and our leaders know it. For them it is a numbers game and how many people can they convince they will do something of current interest once in office.

Oh, the excuses are formulating here...conditioning once again.

I try to look at things in the simplest of terms of what they are and have looked into many things for the good in them but mostly to find them supported by the bad. Others may not have a problem with the state of things but it is very disturbing to me to think of what our future will be like if all these things that one may think are not so bad continue. If we all don't do anything about them, they will perpetuate and before long it will be affecting each of our lives directly and we won't be able to ignore it any longer because we will have no choice but to deal with it on some level.

We have been conditioned to be the audience, all the worlds a stage, it is time to become part of the cast. Let's make Positive things happen for our children's future by what we do today. We all know that we don't really have the time with all the demands placed on our lives to educate ourselves on the issues, the candidates, the ever changing bureaucracy rules and laws...but!!!.......

If you do nothing, then you have no right to complain when it happens to you.

Rod!~

Bravo Rod, you said it well. I do fear for my children and we all should. I'll love & protect mine

Just like the 700 mile Border security fence they just put through congress 1.2 Billion $$$. The White House & republican congress passed another bill one day later that says that money can go to other things than just the fence and they put the chump Chertoff Homeland Security Guy in charge of much of the decisions.Why he's still in charge after Katrina I dont know.

They knew one day later that the most the fence will be is under 390 miles, not 700 miles like they told the American people.Why do they have to lie to us WHYYYYYYYY . Oh they'll tell us its going to other border security. But the bill was suppose to be 700 miles of fence