2 party system

[Jeff 232]

OK this should get some of you going. Election time is coming and hopefully the Dems will take control of Congress. So get out there and vote.

You all know Im no fan of our Prez, but I'm even less of a fan of congress. This country needs to have Dem control to help with the checks & balances in our goverment. There has been total Republican control for to long and the Republican, yes and Dems too only care about getting reelected

Bush can say and do anything he wants and has hurt us and alienated pretty much in the whole world except Britian. All his evel doers like Iran & Korea are doing what ever they want and are laughing at us, because they know we really can't do that much because we are bogged down in Iraq a war that was only going to cost us 10 million dollars (oops bad #'s)

I've read where some even some in the military say we are doing good,. Over 1/2 the Iraqee people want to see us dead. We have our military on extened tours.

The Republicians are out of control. Like Bush said he wants to get to the bottom of the CIA leak, its bulls--t it was his own people, but he sidestepped that by playing word games. Rumsfeld shouldnt still be there, he didnt have a plan past a few months, DUHHHHH.

Aberrooff is a crook and so arent a bunch of the Republican he gave money to. We have a Republican thats a peodophile who just resigned.

Allen Mr. Macacca who said he just made up the word, I knew that word since I was a little boy, He says he's never talked racial slurs. NEVER!!!!!! Who's he kidding, just be honest. Then he hides and lies that he's part Jew, get over it.

I dont want the Dems in to make things misrable for all, just to have a check & balance system again. One party in control of everything is not good for our country

So what do you all think.

JL

[Jeff 232]

I thought I'd respond as an uninformed electorate...please check the following links.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4209908.html

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/09/24/1924636.htm

http://news.pajamasmedia.com/business/2006/09/24/11002247_Border_baby_boom.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/071806HB.shtml

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back805.html

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=1420

http://archive.gao.gov/paprpdf1/158747.pdf

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=27182

Just a few you might want to take a look at...of course, being uneducated, I did have to have someone help me with the big words. Don't like any of these? There are plenty more.

On the other hand, you have to ask "How many is too many?" I'm not a hate-monger, but I'm not naieve enough to think that nobody is footing the bill for all these births...that would be the taxpayers.

Of course, we can't just give them free healthcare...we also have to educate them, so they can become productive members of society. Off to school, kiddos. Get on the buses (that are already overcrowded) and go to classes (that are already over crowded). But wait...we can't have that many kids on the buses or in class...it's too many to teach with just one teacher. So, let's buy more buses, build more classes, hire more bus drivers and teachers.

Oh...the schools can't afford that? No problem, we'll just raise taxes.

They don't speak English, you say? No problem...we'll hire another teacher and teach them English...or even better, let's buy books that are printed in Spanish and teach them in their native language.

Back to the original statement...which you didn't like...how did this happen? Let's see...which party says the government should provide for everyone? That would be the Democrats. Which party fosters the myth that the rich aren't paying taxes? That would be the Democrats. Which party consistently rolls out more and more programs to make sure that the folks that don't work won't ever have a reason to go to work? That would be the Democrats.

Need more money? No problem...just have another baby! That would be the Democrats.

Which party is responsible for "not torturing" hostages in interviews. You said John McCain was responsible...but you forgot to mention a couple of dozen Democrats that were standing beside him...and I like John McCain...still do!

Republicans are pedophiles and perverts...well, we know one that is and he resigned. Now let's look back at a previous president that DIDN'T resign...denied it even when it was undeniable....a Democrat. Yes...they did spend a ton of money on hearings...but old Bill and Hill made it easier by denying, losing documents, hiding witnesses. But, of course, that was the Republicans fault.

How 'bout old Barney Frank?...a Democrat. Jack Murtha, he's a great guy...former Marine and all. Oh yeah, he did escape being indicted for taking bribes by the skin of his teeth...went to the meeting and got himself video taped...but at least he was savvy enough to realize he was about to get caught and got cold feet. But he is the bastion of what America is all about, isn't he?..a Democrat.

Best of all, don't forget old Teddy K. Wanna take a Saturday night ride with him? Think he's going to start paying more taxes? How about Kerry? He's work a couple mil...think he's going to get behind paying more taxes? If it will get them elected, I guarantee they'll say they will.

They are all politicians. I look at what the party stands for...and which candidate most closely reflects my values, then I vote for him/her...and hope he does what he says he's going to do! If he doesn't, I don't re-elect him.

If you want to know what the Republican and Democratic parties stand for, your responsibility is to take a little longer look back...and peek under the covers to see past the politics. Look back 20 - 30 years...see which party tried to take us in what direction.

You state that Bill Clinton signed off to provide free healthcare to all vets...yes he did. He also vetoed the bill to fund that healthcare. Kinda sad that the immigrants get free healthcare easier than our vets.

If you want to vote Libertarian...acknowledge that it is a symbolic, and futile, effort. Your vote will count for nothing more than taking a vote away from a Republican or Democrat. You are, in essence, voting against the most popular candidate...period.

Why not get active? Make your voice heard. Make phone calls, write letters. We need a change and we need it now. Not change for change's sake, but real change.

My wife is a school teacher and she's completely frustrated that public education isn't about teaching...it's about complying with requirements to avoid losing funding. My son is in the military...going into harm's way soon...and it scares me to death to see people jumping to conclusions based on what they heard on the news or heard from their buddy because that kind of decision making process means more people get hurt.

Don't listen to what they say...dig in and see what they've done, how they voted. Their record tells you who they really are.

kevinw

You can blame democrats, but the fact is the republicans have been in charge for over 6 years. Bush & the republican congress spends more of our tax dollars than anyone else on PORK, Your whole republican party is spend spend spend . What make you think they are anything different then what you think democrats are. We'll be paying the deficit for years. Like I said there isnt a true conservitive that likes Bushes spending habits and you cant dispute that

I dont care what anyone says, Iraq wasnt the front line of the war on terror, Afganastan & Bin Laden was, Why did he have to go so quick into Iraq, Iraq was under control and actually was a defense against Iran. Bush thought and never planned for an insurgency. I agree that if we leave Iraq the enemy will feel they won. My point is it was a dumb ass move to go into iraq and then say it was on the war on terror. Well before 9/11 Bush & Chenney knew they were going into Iraq 9/11 was just a easier way they could do it

Bushes policies has the whole world hating us and the terrorist are growing in #'s every day. You cant be a cowboy and tell the whole world to screw and thats what they did. You need allies. Good ole Bush wanted Dead or alive, sounds good but he's a clown. We dont have Bin Laden and believe it or not Saddam Hussien actually helped us keep Iran in place. Bush listens only to what he wants, a great leader listens to all. Bush said he'll never be a nation builder, he said that before 9/11, now he wants to be a region builder. Maybe they middle east doesnt want to be totally democratic society. OH BUT BUSH SAYS THEY HAVE TO. Its a different world over there. Bush is a screw up , he was when he was sniffing coke, getting drunk, and selling fake ID's, he was when he was a business owner and he is now!!

When the republicans threw the bums out in 1993 - 94 they said things would change, the only thing that changed was the bums now are republican instead of democrats. Its obvious power corrupts

Stop blaming the democrats for whats going on now. True Republicans dont like Bush they'd love to see him out and replaced with a conservitive

[Jeff 232]

If you think the wealthy will make less think again. You run a business. Your workers come to you and ask for a 50% hike in pay. What are you going to do? Decrease your level of comfort in your lifestyle? Take a lower pay yourself? Not hardly. You are either going to decrease your staff and expect more work out of fewer to compensate for the increased pay, you are going to raise your prices on your customers, your are going to invest in a technology to do more work with less people, or you are going to shut down your business and put your efforts elsewhere. Remember when you could buy a candy bar for $0.30 each about 10 years back? And now it's roughly $0.59? When the minimum wage increased, it increases prices across the board. Hershey's needs to pay their bottom workers more. The companies from whom Hershey's buy increase their costs. The grocery store raises it's costs. Lots of embedded costs in getting that product to the store, and an increase in the cost to produce it will cause an increas in the cost to make it. I think that's one of the principles behind inflation. When I bagged groceries and the minimum wage was increased, co-workers cheered. We were running each checkout lane with 1 cashier and 2 baggers. 3 months later, in a company where turnover was rather high and folks were quitting at a rate of 1 per week and another was hired in his place, we were running at about 70% of the previous staff level. The store stopped hiring as often. They reduced hours. Just try to go in a grocery store around here now and find a bagger at every counter. Most cashiers are bagging and rining up the purchase. I can guarantee you most companies will adjust their prices to acheive the same profit margin.

Whats wrong with raising the min wage to say $7-$8 These low end worker are very important to all of us. Back when the min wage was raised years ago they said it would hurt the economy -- IT DIDNT

Low end workers should have more money, do you want to flip your own buger when you want fast food, do you want to change the linen or clean the toilets when you go on vacation at a resort, Do you want to clean the blood off the operating table before you go into surgery. Not all people that are lowend workers are scum as some think, some are uneducated for many reasons, some are mentally retarded, some are working 3 jobs just to make ends meet, some come from families that taught them nothing, Not everyone can start their own business or get great paying jobs. So give the a raise in min wage and let other wages rise

What make any of us any better than anyone else. Just because they are lowend they shouldnt get or deserve a raise for YEARS.

I'll tell you some of the jobs these low end workers do are a lot MORE IMPORTANT than what we do, pressure washing. I rather walk on dirty concrete going into the hospital than lay on a dirty bloody operating table.

Theres a lot of people out there that think pressure washing is an unskilled job and should be done by lowend workers, do you want to earn min wage?

I'm not saying give everybody $15 an hour but $7 or $8 get real its been yearsssssssssssssss since theres been a min wage. Our Congress slips themselves raises all the time

Vote Dem in 2006. Throw the bums out or is that what Foley said to the page boy

JL

[kevinw 14]

Bushes policies has the whole world hating us and the terrorist are growing in #'s every day. You cant be a cowboy and tell the whole world to screw and thats what they did. You need allies. Good ole Bush wanted Dead or alive, sounds good but he's a clown. We dont have Bin Laden and believe it or not Saddam Hussien actually helped us keep Iran in place. Bush listens only to what he wants, a great leader listens to all. Bush said he'll never be a nation builder, he said that before 9/11, now he wants to be a region builder. Maybe they middle east doesnt want to be totally democratic society. OH BUT BUSH SAYS THEY HAVE TO. Its a different world over there. Bush is a screw up , he was when he was sniffing coke, getting drunk, and selling fake ID's, he was when he was a business owner and he is now!!

When the republicans threw the bums out in 1993 - 94 they said things would change, the only thing that changed was the bums now are republican instead of democrats. Its obvious power corrupts

Facts? It's fairly obvious that you don't like the current administration...but throwing out generalities and rhetoric like this is just name calling. Okay, you don't like them...what are you doing about it? Voting Democratic in the next election? Do you know what they stand for?

Your talking about the last 6 years...do you really believe that we're where we are today because of the last 6 years? If you're telling me that you've made your mind up, and don't want to be confused with the facts...then your vote means it will just keep going in this direction.

The issues that I'm concerned with include:

1. Iraq

2. Iran/Korea

3. The economy

4. Education

5. Social Security

6. Eroding moral values

7. Tax system

Not necessarily in that order. Of those issues, only one...Iraq...sits completely in this administration's lap. The rest have been building for decades. When are we going to address them?

Your statements make it sound like you believe that the Democrats offer a better solution...but the past 30 years say that isn't the case. Let's go down the list.

Iraq - On one hand, you can argue that Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11. Bin Laden and Afghanistan were. The truth is that there were a lot more countries involved to varying degrees. Do we attack them all? Can't do that. Do we go after them through the UN? I'm not optimistic about positive results there. So, should we have just left Iraq alone? I believe that 500,000 murdered men, women, and children (documented fact) would say we should have done something about it a long time ago. You can say it's not our responsibility? If not us, then who? Let the UN deal with it? That program lasted for over 8 years without any results while more people died.

You say we've lost credibility in the world community, we've lost our allies...the whole world hates us. I think you need to tune into another news network, you're buying their news. But, let's take a look at some of those allies you're talking about. France...got caught with their hand in the cookie jar in Iraq. Violating UN sanctions, selling arms and technology under the guise of food programs. Russia...same thing. Do you really believe we should just go along with them? We should emulate France and Russia? We should criticize Britain for sticking with us...and sticking to their guns?

Those allies that you want us to line up with were talking out of both sides of their mouth...voting for UN sanctions while undermining any possible chance of success by violating the very sanctions they voted for! I want to be on their team, don't you?

Iran/Korea. This has been in the works for 40 - 50 years. Surely you watched M*A*S*H*? Remember...Korean War? We bailed early, and left N. Korea to keep chugging along. Now, 40 - 50 years later what are we looking at? It worked great then, let's do the same thing in Iraq now? Iran? I was in college when the Ayatollah took over...I remember the hostages and the attack on the embassy. Guess which party was in office at the time? We pulled out...and here we are today? So...let's use that successful strategy again in Iraq.

To say that Iraq kept Iran in check is a gross mis-statement of fact. They did a pretty good job of shooting each other's troops, but do you really believe that Saddam could have stopped Iran from developing nuclear technology?

The Economy. All things considered, it's not too bad. Fuel prices, future of some of the big companies are making folks nervous This goes back to the discussion about minimum wage too. You cannot slice out pieces of the economy without considering the impact to the entire economy.

I'd like to see the economy stabilize but it's going to take a correction in the housing market (which will have a negative impact to the overall economy), a correction in the big manufacturers (GM/Ford, airlines, etc.) The problem is that it has taken decades of accumulating expenses to hit this point, and they can't just start dumping the expenses. We're talking about retirement plans, healthcare plans, union wages...all of that adds up to expenses that cannot be accrued or deferred anymore. It's time to pay the piper. Do they raise prices? They can't, you will stop buying their products and buy competitive prices...imports, low fare carriers, etc.

The problem with all of that is we're talking about big companies that employ thousands of people, representing millions of dollars in payroll, that pays for our goods and services. When they get nervous about their future, they stop spending money...and the economy slows down. So...did GWB do this? The Republicans?

Raise minimum wages, those $$$ have to be absorbed somewhere...gross margin, price increases, decreased expenses...it's got to come from somewhere. Minimum wage increases are historically counterproductive. Raising minimum wage is a raise for nothing. No increased performance or capability...we just think you should have more money. Historically, increased wages based on incentives...more productivity, more capability, better training...always improve the economy. "If you do a better job, you'll make more money." vs. "You're going to get a raise if you show up."

Did GWB create this? The Republicans? Nope...Democratic success story.

Education. Our public education is a mess, and we are now provide one of the poorest educations of any modern country...and my wife is a school teacher. Teacher unions have a strangle hold on our schools...you can't fire a teacher that doesn't do their job...they get raises without merit...they're paid to get more and more degrees, but aren't better teachers. The government has responded with "programs". As a result, we now have an education system that specializes in creating scoring processes that make themselves look good...and our kids can't make change at the cash register, much less read.

Did GWB do this? The Republicans? This started back in the 60's with the NEA...who strongly back the Democratic party!

Social Security It's a mess, and bankrupt. Go back and take a look at who has repeatedly robbed the bank here...which party has gone back, time and time again...and pulled the funding out from Social Security. You guessed it...Democrats.

By the way...GWB at least took a swing at fixing it, but got shut down by both parties.

Eroding Moral Values I'm not talking about making everybody go to church here. We are slouching down the hill, becoming more permissive everyday. When will wrong become wrong again? Lies are okay, profanity...fine, sexual promiscuity is the norm. I've been to Europe, I've seen graphic pornography posted on the billboards, I've seen family entertainment there...live strippers at the skating rink on family night!

Making it legal doesn't make it right...it just makes it taxable. It makes it easier to police...you don't have to police it anymore.

Without morality, we are exactly what the terrorists say we are...infidels.

Did GWB do that? The Republicans? Nope...the Democratic party says it's their right to express themselves anyway they want to. I don't believe having the right is the same as having license. You might want to pull out your dictionary to check the meaning of license.

Tax System How do you feel about being taxed for being self employed? How about paying taxes when you inherit from someone...it's already been taxed once, but now it's being taxed again. The tax system favors the rich only in the fact that the rich can afford the tax accountants/lawyers that have deciphered the system and found the loopholes. The average Joe can't afford that. It's broken and needs to be fixed.

Did GWB break it? The Republicans? Keep in mind that the Republicans are historically the party that lower taxes...the Democratic party historically raises taxes. GWB took a swing at this one too...got shut down by both parties. Go back and look at the last 4 Democratic presidents, and what happened to taxes while they were in office.

Jeff, I sympathize with your frustration of the status quo...but emotional responses don't fix things. You threw stones at GWB for substance abuse in his past...what about Bill C.? You threw stones at GWB as a business owner...take a look at the state of Arkansas when Bill C. left there as governor.

The whole world hates us...if you believe CBS. Terrorists are growing in numbers...what makes you think they wouldn't grow in numbers regardless. They attacked us on 9/11 before we went to Afghanistan or Iraq...are you saying that it's our fault they attacked us...they wouldn't grow in numbers if we weren't in Iraq? How about the attacks in Europe...our fault too? If we weren't in Iraq they wouldn't attack anywhere? Is all of that GWB and the Republican's fault too?

kevinw

[RyanH 14]

Jeff,

Apparently you didn't fully read what i said happens when you have a mandatory raise for employees. Please read again and if you still don't understand I'll try to make it simpler.

Try the SOB Foley with the same laws we use against any other sexual predator..checking himeself into rehab is a cop out and he should be tried and jailed if he is truly guilty.

And if you don't improve your job skills after being at a job after several years, maybe you just aren't motivated enough. You don't need a college degree to be a manager...I knew a regional manager at our grocery store who made $160k per year and started out as a bag boy and a GED. Don't ask the government to make up for your inability...do something about it yourself. That's the difference between a lib and a conservative....you apply pity when you should expect a little individual responsibility. Lowend wage earners aren't necessarily lowend people, I agree. But EARN a raise, don't just get one through your vote.

[JohnW 14]

Pleas raise minimum wage. Nobody can afford to work for $5.25per hour. You cant even live off $7/hr. When you raise it it will in effect raise the salaries of many jobs that curretnly pay $8-$10 hr. The wealthy will make a little less but our country will flourish. People will want to get off welfare and unemployment.

I had planned on not jumping in on this thread, but this paragraph gets me too worked up. Raise minimum wage? Who's going to pay for that raise? Mimimum wage jobs were never meant to be career positions. When I graduated high school and decided I wasn't going to go to college at the expense of my parents, I worked a couple of minimum wage jobs. I learned a valuable lesson here. I don't want to work for minimum wage the rest of my life. I then decided, to work hard enough and save that money up to pay my way thru tech school and learn a decent trade, computers. From there I was able to land a job in corporate america.

Raising the minimum wage isn't the answer. It's just like the poor guy who wins the lottery and then spends all the money in a year or two. The wage increase isn't going to solve his/her problems. The solution to the problem lies with the individual. It's up to the individual to save their money and put themself into a better situation. The bigger question, is why are they in a minimum wage job to begin with, if they are over the age of 25? The solution is to take some responsiblity for your actions and do something about it, not rely on the government to make wage increases.

And to clarify before anyone wants to tell me I had to rely on something to make that happen. I've never taken money from my parents, all my vehicles have been paid for by myself, I've lived on my own after I was 23, sometimes having to work 2 to 3 jobs. I had too much pride to take handouts from anyone. I feel that I'm a better person, knowing that what I worked hard to create was my own, because of my own hard work.

[jnoden 15]

Jeff,

Apparently you didn't fully read what i said happens when you have a mandatory raise for employees. Please read again and if you still don't understand I'll try to make it simpler.

Try the SOB Foley with the same laws we use against any other sexual predator..checking himeself into rehab is a cop out and he should be tried and jailed if he is truly guilty.

And if you don't improve your job skills after being at a job after several years, maybe you just aren't motivated enough. You don't need a college degree to be a manager...I knew a regional manager at our grocery store who made $160k per year and started out as a bag boy and a GED. Don't ask the government to make up for your inability...do something about it yourself. That's the difference between a lib and a conservative....you apply pity when you should expect a little individual responsibility. Lowend wage earners aren't necessarily lowend people, I agree. But EARN a raise, don't just get one through your vote.

Im not sure what you mean by mandatory raises for employees. I understand what you are saying about earning raises. It is completely different than raising min wage.

The vast majority of felons and exfelons are not vilolent or sexual offenders and are not what Im talking about. Im not trying to protect rapists and pedophiles. (ofcourse though that is how democrats are viewed).

Improve job skills? there isnt room for every great bagger to become a manager of a store. Come on, everyone knows someone who started from nothing and become something great. Do you know anyone who cant even get a job as a bagger but could be great if given the chance? Work with me for one week and you would be whistling a different tune. We live cushioned lives.

I dont apply pitty. On the surface it is exactly how you, Rush Limbaugh, and my inlaws see things. That is what you know as reality. I just see things a little differently. Remember only 80 years ago we had slavery. It was a normal view point at the time. Its difficult to understand anything that you are not a part of. In the future we will look back on this time as being overly conservative and ignorant. No disrespect meant to anyone who is republican.

[Chappy 138]

Republicans take responsibility for their failures. They may do stupid or illegal things, but they resign their positions when they are caught. When democrats get caught, they rally aroung each other and get reelected.

Congressman Reynolds, caught in a sting with $90000 in bribe money in his freezer- still in congress; Barney Frank-friend runs male prostitution ring in his basement, has parking tickets fixed so they dont have questions asked-still in congress; Jerry Sudds- Has *** with a page- not just emails- runs again and wins another seat in congress; John Murtha-escapes being charged with accepting bribes in the abscam deal by a technicallity-still in congress. by they way, all Democrats.

Mark foley-resigns, duke Cunningham-resigns. No one in the republican party stands up for these guys but resoundly condemned them for thier actions.

As this thing hashes out, there were newspapers and other media that had this story many months ago. There was nothing too it for them to publish until now. Remember the October surprise Clinton pulled on Bush 41? Here we go again. There is much more that can be said about the Dems and the way they treat thier fellons compared to Republicans. But not now.

By the way Jeff I said "their good and bad people in each party."

[kevinw 14]

Im not sure what you mean by mandatory raises for employees. I understand what you are saying about earning raises. It is completely different than raising min wage.

I dont apply pitty. On the surface it is exactly how you, Rush Limbaugh, and my inlaws see things. That is what you know as reality. I just see things a little differently. Remember only 80 years ago we had slavery. It was a normal view point at the time. Its difficult to understand anything that you are not a part of. In the future we will look back on this time as being overly conservative and ignorant. No disrespect meant to anyone who is republican.

It seems that you view of reality doesn't go past the surface. Minimum wage is the starting point for unskilled, inexperienced labor...the starting point. Raising the minimum wage doesn't increase skill levels or give experience. It does increase the cost of doing business, which means lowered gross margins OR increased prices OR decreased expenditures on things like benefits, advertising, etc.

Keep in mind that it impacts a major part of our economy, retailers, more than anyone and those guys live or die on 1/2 of a percent. They won't absorb it, they will pass it along as price increases or cut expenses..like benefits...remember WalMart?

Which do you prefer? Increased prices or more people needing government funded healthcare? Those are two of your choices...the most likely two.

My view of reality goes a long way past the obvious.

kevinw

[Jeff 232]

I Don't have time right now to resspond to everything, but I want EVERYBOBY to know that I see and can understand other points of views. Some I actually agree with in part or whole, but I see things differently then say a republican or Lib

I actually like these conversations we all have. I learn a lot, yes some drive me crazy and some I just dont fully understand and some I'd like to see in a different life and see what they say and all I'd like to drink a beer with. Have a great day you right wing NUTS lol

I have some good stuff to read when I get back. ONCE AGAIN thanks for the fun conversation ALL

OOPS I almost forgot, VOTE DEM IN 2006!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chappy 138]

amen to that bro. I get totally frustrated and my blood pressure starts to rise and if you were here Id punch you. not a good idea since you are much bigger than me. LOL

I think this is fun and is an outlet that we have, espessially if your wife is like mine and totally uninterested,(ignorant?) Although sometimes she goads me on just to see me start to boil. Most of the guys I hang out with agree with me so I just cant get any good arguments going, and have no other outlet for my right wing rants.

you keep up your rants, However uneducated they me be and Ill dazzle you with my immense knowledge and absolutely unempeachable opinions.

Please note the above is 100% toungue in cheek and dont go off on me anyone.

[RyanH 14]

In the future we will look back on this time as being overly conservative and ignorant. No disrespect meant to anyone who is republican.

This is a really amusing point. One day, when we are all enlightened and have learned the error of our ways, we are to look back and think that being fiscally responsible was a terrible thing?

I'd like for you to do a few things, privately or publicly:

Consider a politician who tells the "public" that those who "have not" are going to get handouts from the government. Then tell me where the government get's the money.

Consider a politician who tells corporations they must increase the wages they pay to the employees. Then consider: who's money is it the politician is promising? That money was made through the efforts of those who started the business. The great minds and risk takers who put everything on the line to start small hire other people to help them out, sure, but it belongs to those who start it. Who is going to pay for the raises? Hey jnoden...give your kids a 50% increase in their allowance. Right now. Don't expect more out fo them. Don't ask questions, just give it to them. If you are on a budget, you may have to pull that extra money from somewhere else, like improvements to your house or investments in your future.

Consider a corporation that pays taxes. When taxes on the company are raised, where does the money come from? A corporation doesn't have money any more than the government does....they collect it from consumers. Consumers pay ALL the taxes that are paid in this country. Corporate tax increases / benefit inreaseses will be funded by consumer spending....your jeans will go from $25.99 to $26.99. May not be much, but to some it may be.

Nobody owns money, it is a commodity that is traded in exchange for services. People who offer good services or do not squander their money accumulate more than people who are not as valuable in the economy and marketplace. That isn't ignorance...THAT's reality. Now, if you want to get enlightened, get behind an idea that will jump start the economy and bring jobs back to our country so there are more job options. Support the Fair Tax.

[RyanH 14]

Dammit. I'm using a professional board devoted to residential and commercial cleaning and the only thing I've posted in the past few months doesn't even relate to either. I've become a troll. I'm sorry.

[Jeff 232]

Dammit. I'm using a professional board devoted to residential and commercial cleaning and the only thing I've posted in the past few months doesn't even relate to either. I've become a troll. I'm sorry.

Join the club, funny stuff these BB's

[Jeff 232]

This is a really amusing point. One day, when we are all enlightened and have learned the error of our ways, we are to look back and think that being fiscally responsible was a terrible thing?

Who's fiscally responsible, the present administration & the present congress ??? I dont think so

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Dammit. I'm using a professional board devoted to residential and commercial cleaning and the only thing I've posted in the past few months doesn't even relate to either. I've become a troll. I'm sorry.

Who didn't see this one comming! Politics brings out the best in us...don't you think?!?!?

You're just out of practice Ryan, hang in there, you'll get back in the groove. Troll! :lol:

Rod!~

[Jeff 232]

I'm going to try to drop out of this back & forth stuff

I just want to say both major political parties sure need to better themselves. There's a lot of bad in both parties and they need to be much better.

I'd like both parties to be in the middle of what there parties stand for. I dont want either party to be extreme left or right. The only way this country will be respected by all is if all see us working together.

Compromise is a good thing.

I personally write mine & others congressmen several times on certain issues. I write/email both republican & democratic congressmen. Im just as hard on a dem as the republicans I email. I figure they should know how I and others feel

I hope our political parties get much better no one can say that our parties are doing a great or even a good job

Vote Dem in 2006

[Deck Guy 14]

Kevin,

Not one of those articles says anything about the majority of births in Texas being to illegal immigrants, which is what you said! They speak of a 40% increase over a certain period of time, and one states that there were approximately 360,000 births to illegal immigrants nationwide last year. But I found that there were 384,000 total births in Texas alone in 2004, so even comparing the Texas birth rate to the nationwide illegal immigrant birth rate, your numbers don't add up! Just cite the one source you were quoting from when you said that.

My general problem is simply this...don't quote numbers if you have nothing to back it up. I wouldn't have had a problem if you say, "There are more and more births to illegal immigrants each year," because I believe that too. But making up numbers makes you look like your pushing your point through BS, which I can smell from here, and is an insult to the intelligence with a computer and access to Google. If you can show me where you got your info, I'll admit that I'm very suprised, and that you were right all along.

Post the link backing your numbers. I'll even make it easy for you. I'll assume that, as a given, there were approximately the same number of total births in Texas in 2006 as in 2004. Now you just have to show me that there were 195,000 births to illegal immigrants in Texas last year.

Larry

[jnoden 15]

This is a really amusing point. One day, when we are all enlightened and have learned the error of our ways, we are to look back and think that being fiscally responsible was a terrible thing?

I'd like for you to do a few things, privately or publicly:

Consider a politician who tells the "public" that those who "have not" are going to get handouts from the government. Then tell me where the government get's the money.

Consider a politician who tells corporations they must increase the wages they pay to the employees. Then consider: who's money is it the politician is promising? That money was made through the efforts of those who started the business. The great minds and risk takers who put everything on the line to start small hire other people to help them out, sure, but it belongs to those who start it. Who is going to pay for the raises? Hey jnoden...give your kids a 50% increase in their allowance. Right now. Don't expect more out fo them. Don't ask questions, just give it to them. If you are on a budget, you may have to pull that extra money from somewhere else, like improvements to your house or investments in your future.

Consider a corporation that pays taxes. When taxes on the company are raised, where does the money come from? A corporation doesn't have money any more than the government does....they collect it from consumers. Consumers pay ALL the taxes that are paid in this country. Corporate tax increases / benefit inreaseses will be funded by consumer spending....your jeans will go from $25.99 to $26.99. May not be much, but to some it may be.

Nobody owns money, it is a commodity that is traded in exchange for services. People who offer good services or do not squander their money accumulate more than people who are not as valuable in the economy and marketplace. That isn't ignorance...THAT's reality. Now, if you want to get enlightened, get behind an idea that will jump start the economy and bring jobs back to our country so there are more job options. Support the Fair Tax.

Its quite a cliche. Just because i am democrat does not mean I want to give handouts to people who can work but do not want to work. I Like how republicans simplify everything. I think that its much more than what you are thinking.

Give my kids a 50% raise!? Where did this come from? It has nothing to do with raising minimum wage a little. I am lucky that I can afford to give my son an allowance when he gets older. He will have many more opportuntiies than other kids. Rasing minimum wage does not effect just the recipient but can effect the entire family. Thats ok though. They will get by with what they have. Of course crime and delinquency among other things statistically rises as the lower soci-economic class is afforded less. The more separation there is between economic classes in this country the more problems we will face. Its a fact.

[RyanH 14]

Its quite a cliche. Just because i am democrat does not mean I want to give handouts to people who can work but do not want to work. I Like how republicans simplify everything. I think that its much more than what you are thinking.

I've already stated that I'm not a republican. My claim about the democratic party is that it wants to destroy the concept of the individual and focus on groups.

Give my kids a 50% raise!? Where did this come from?

Taking the minimum raise from around $5 per hour to over $7 per hour equates to about a 50% raise, and it required nothing from the individual, it just required the stroke of a pen by a legislature in exchange for a larger voting base. If your kid currently makes an allowance, just throw him a 50% increase....it's the same thing. I earned an allowance for doing things around the house growing up. Some were expected as part of the family...when I did extra things I made an allowance. If I wanted more money, I did extra things.

Rasing minimum wage does not effect just the recipient but can effect the entire family. Thats ok though. They will get by with what they have. Of course crime and delinquency among other things statistically rises as the lower soci-economic class is afforded less. The more separation there is between economic classes in this country the more problems we will face. Its a fact.

Everyone has a reason to work for money. For those who support a family, sure, it benefits the family. For those who pay for college, then it means they can work fewer hours and still afford school. If you have a car, insurance, etc. it makes it easier to do that. Great. But it requires no extra effort from the individual, and the money comes from either a reduction in company profit or an increae to the consumer. You still haven't conceded to that ugly fact. The truth is, wages are paid based upon ability. Pretty much anybody in this country with an arm and dextrous fingers is capable of flipping burgers, so there is no shortage of work to do that. Being a supervisor requires a little more capability in organizing things, managing time and money, and carries more responsibility, thus the reason they are paid more. There is not an endless supply of people who are bright or dedicated enough to perform brain surgery, design bridges so they will not collapse, or run a multi billion dollar company successfully without going bankrupt. There isn't an endless supply of people *willing* to miss seeing their families for weeks at a time while they drive trucks across the country, or live on oil rigs, or fight in wars. These people are given better benefits (income, insurance, retirement, etc.) than the guy who pushes a mop bucket around. I am not attacking democrats, I'm attacking *individuals* who think it is quite alright to take money out of the pocket of one person and put it into the pockets of another. Money is nothing if not a symbol of one's acheivements and ability. To receive it without earning (to get a raise without bringing more benefit to the person paying you) denigrates the efforts of those who constantly seek to improve themselves. I've left three jobs before because the "boss man" didn't see my value. Perhaps I was overinflating my value or perhaps he was undervaluing my value...regardless the benefits I received for providing my services to the company didn't match MY perceived value of my services. I took my skills elsewhere, proved myself, and made more money with each move. My problem is with people who don't make that effort but try to swim along in the current of other people's actions. And if you think you are worth $7 per hour but aren't being paid that amount, then you aren't worth it. There is always someone who will come along and do your same work. Perhaps you are overqualified for the position you're at and should move along. I'm all for a free and open market where the individual makes himself or herself. I'm not for rich or poor, big or small.... I"m for the individual, and I believe that everyone is where they are because they allow themselves to be there. Whatever political party you think that makes me, then put me there. That was the founding attitude of our country and things were going just fine until "they" started to destroy the individual and lump folks into classes.

[jnoden 15]

QUOTE;

And if you think you are worth $7 per hour but aren't being paid that amount, then you aren't worth it. There is always someone who will come along and do your same work. Perhaps you are overqualified for the position you're at and should move along. I'm all for a free and open market where the individual makes himself or herself. I'm not for rich or poor, big or small.... I"m for the individual, and I believe that everyone is where they are because they allow themselves to be there. Whatever political party you think that makes me, then put me there. That was the founding attitude of our country and things were going just fine until "they" started to destroy the individual and lump folks into classes.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. People would rather live on our welfare system and support their illegimate children than work for minimum wage or even $7/hr. Why would someone want to pay $5/hr for daycare to work for $7/hr? Maybe if they also didnt need to buy the children food, pay for housing and utilities etc. People that run our country have money and that is why your opinions will stay popular. Your analogy of allowance is poor. If your child was using the money to make a living than it would be more acurate and yes I would give them a raise so that they can survive. So would you. I dont even know you Ryan but I know you were born in to more opportunities than many others. I being raised in a trailer with an alcohloic mom dropped out of high school as a druggy only to return and graduate at 20, attend community college to prove myself enough to attend Penn State, obtain a B.S degree and work as a FT probation officer senior while running a very succesful business that I knew nothing about before starting it up. Yes it happens and I think I could easily say that If I can rise above and do it than everyone has the same opportunity. I will not say that though. I know otherwise. You never will.

[Chappy 138]

The only people in this county that make min wage are the day laborers. Ive used many and with one exeption, they are there becaused they just moved here or because they made stupid decisions in thier lives, (drugs,alcohol.) even McDs pays $7.50 to start out here. Supply and demand rules the market and there is a shortage of labor here. But at 7.50 per hour,($1 more than state min and $2 more than Fed min.) they cant possibly afford a house in this market and probably will not be able to afford a decent apartment either. So should an employer pay a wage that would allow them to affore a home here? At $15/hour they would make 31200 per year. That would get them into a $78000 house if you use the 2.5 times income ratio that used to be the standard. There isnt a house in this county that they could get for that price. the avg price is $229000!!! So should they be paid $20 or $30/hr? Even professional positions in this county barely pay that.

Should the govt step in and subsidize them? thats your money by way of more taxes.

Whats fair? they cant live off $7.50/hour so where does the min wage come in at fair. This is an endless argument and will never end

Historically people that work for min wage are teenagers or part timers. Those with job experience make more and continue to make more as thier experience grows.

But if the job market cools, the businesses that are low margin businesses will not hire if the min wage is increased with out an increase in prices, which causes inflation to rise, which causes borrowing rates to increase, which leads to a recession where those that make min wage are laid off first.

[Deck Guy 14]

People make the same lame arguments against minimum wage increases each time they are considered, but why don't we just look at facts surrounding minimum wage increases in the past? Because the facts don't support these arguments.

Here's a quote from the Economic Policy Institute:

Recently, the Fiscal Policy Institute (FPI) released a study of the impact of higher minimum wages on small businesses4. Their analysis focuses on various outcomes for businesses with less than 50 employees, comparing these outcomes between states with minimum wages above the Federal level and those at the Federal level. If the theory that higher minimum wages hurt small businesses is correct, then we would expect there to be less growth in such enterprises in states with higher minimum wages. In fact, as shown in Figure 5, the opposite is the case.

• Between 1998 and 2001, the number of small business establishments grew twice as quickly in states with higher minimum wages (3.1% vs. 1.6%).

• Employment grew 1.5% more quickly in high minimum wage states.

• Annual and average payroll growth was also faster in higher minimum wage states.

There are upsides and downsides to everything, but at least consider both.

And sorry guys, many economists view the labor market for minimum wage workers to be largely inelastic. It's doubtful the any Burger King will be laying anyone off anytime soon, even if the minimun wage were to increase. At least around here, they're struggling to fill the positions they have.

I see some posting here from people who also have posted on other forums about how thankful they are to have what they've got. But is it possible to be truly thankful and yet be so smug when you speak of those who have less? Ask that when you pray next time. Any one of us could lose everything we treasure in an instant. I'm not arguing religion here, because it's not the root of this one belief I have which affects this discussion. I believe that I am my brothers keeper, period.

I worked farm jobs as a kid with migrant workers in hot fields. Whole families would come to work (sometimes three generations). We would weed shallots on our knees, crawling down 1/2 mile long rows while a worker called an "overseer" would walk around with a hoe. Seventy-five cents an hour in 1975, when I was 12. It was really like something out of "Cool Hand Luke." I was needing gas for my minibike, they were working to feed themselves. Kinda puts things in perspective for you.

I'm tired of the whole "I got mine, you get yours," mentality. Doesnt anyone even have a heart anymore?

[jnoden 15]

Larry, Good information. I never saw the stats on this but it defiantely makes sense. Get people off their ass and working and the country is going to be a better place. Welfare is needed but lets motivate people to work by making it worth it.

Jobs that pay more than $9.00hr around here (Lancaster, PA) have an extensive screening process. You must have a very good work history, usually you need work related experience, HS diploma, no criminal background, a drivers license, it usually helps if you are white etc. Im not saying that employers need to change their screening process but I know that many companies ask for too much to pay so little.

Jon, I agree with what you are saying about no matter how much you raise min wage they will never afford a house. Thats acceptable. I think they should be able to afford rent, food, utilities, childrens needs etc. It is not just part timers and teenagers running the low pay jobs. Who works these jobs while kids are at school? Walmart, fast food, gas stations, packing Plants, restaurants, Lube shops etc etc. There are the jobs that only pay a little more than min wage but not enough (around$8/hr): landscaping, factories, warehouses etc. The reason that min wage is not raised is because the profit margin for those who make millions will be less. If i were to hire two FT guys for my business I would give them the opportunity to earn $14-$15/ hr gross by the middle of the season and I might just make a little bit less. I would not raise my prices but I would find a way to work more efficiently. The owners of corps that hire hundreds or thousands will make subsantially less and this is why min wage has not yet been raised.

[Jeff 232]

I've already stated that I'm not a republican. My claim about the democratic party is that it wants to destroy the concept of the individual and focus on groups.

Taking the minimum raise from around $5 per hour to over $7 per hour equates to about a 50% raise, and it required nothing from the individual, it just required the stroke of a pen by a legislature in exchange for a larger voting base. If your kid currently makes an allowance, just throw him a 50% increase....it's the same thing. I earned an allowance for doing things around the house growing up. Some were expected as part of the family...when I did extra things I made an allowance. If I wanted more money, I did extra things.

Everyone has a reason to work for money. For those who support a family, sure, it benefits the family. For those who pay for college, then it means they can work fewer hours and still afford school. If you have a car, insurance, etc. it makes it easier to do that. Great. But it requires no extra effort from the individual, and the money comes from either a reduction in company profit or an increae to the consumer. You still haven't conceded to that ugly fact. The truth is, wages are paid based upon ability. Pretty much anybody in this country with an arm and dextrous fingers is capable of flipping burgers, so there is no shortage of work to do that. Being a supervisor requires a little more capability in organizing things, managing time and money, and carries more responsibility, thus the reason they are paid more. There is not an endless supply of people who are bright or dedicated enough to perform brain surgery, design bridges so they will not collapse, or run a multi billion dollar company successfully without going bankrupt. There isn't an endless supply of people *willing* to miss seeing their families for weeks at a time while they drive trucks across the country, or live on oil rigs, or fight in wars. These people are given better benefits (income, insurance, retirement, etc.) than the guy who pushes a mop bucket around. I am not attacking democrats, I'm attacking *individuals* who think it is quite alright to take money out of the pocket of one person and put it into the pockets of another. Money is nothing if not a symbol of one's acheivements and ability. To receive it without earning (to get a raise without bringing more benefit to the person paying you) denigrates the efforts of those who constantly seek to improve themselves. I've left three jobs before because the "boss man" didn't see my value. Perhaps I was overinflating my value or perhaps he was undervaluing my value...regardless the benefits I received for providing my services to the company didn't match MY perceived value of my services. I took my skills elsewhere, proved myself, and made more money with each move. My problem is with people who don't make that effort but try to swim along in the current of other people's actions. And if you think you are worth $7 per hour but aren't being paid that amount, then you aren't worth it. There is always someone who will come along and do your same work. Perhaps you are overqualified for the position you're at and should move along. I'm all for a free and open market where the individual makes himself or herself. I'm not for rich or poor, big or small.... I"m for the individual, and I believe that everyone is where they are because they allow themselves to be there. Whatever political party you think that makes me, then put me there. That was the founding attitude of our country and things were going just fine until "they" started to destroy the individual and lump folks into classes.

Man Ryan your cheap.

The min wage hasnt been raised in a very long time its due

We give money out all over the world and congress gives themselves raises all the time. Why shouldnt the min wage be adjusted for a cost of living. Also the more money in peoples pockets means more money into the economy. Everything else is like that. As for Walmart raising prices that doesnt bother me. China labor is cheap

[Chappy 138]

According to the dept of labor, 18 states have a higher min wage than the fed rate. Why should the feds be dictating anything. Its a lot easier to get your state to do anything than the fed govmnt. If you guys feel so strongly about it petetion your state to raise its rate.

As for the higher rate jobs being subject to screening, thats the case most everywhere. Why should I pay more for someone unless he fits my needs. The diff in 9 and min wage is $8000/year. With employee turnover as high as it is, employers have every right to be more discriminating in thier hires.

if I can get someone with a few more skills, who doesnt jump jobs, has a clean driving record, who doesnt come to work high, Ill pay more.

"I'm tired of the whole "I got mine, you get yours," mentality. Doesnt anyone even have a heart anymore?"

I dont have mine, Im still working for it. I work alone, when I bring in some one wether day or temp labor, I always give them more than the paycheck, I always try to make it at least 10/hr. sometimes, much more depending on how they did. Start at home. you pay your guys a living wage if thats your belief, and convince other businesess to do the same. Keep gov. out of my pocket. I will do whats right regardless of what someone tells me.

by the way, how do you tip. did you know min wage for wait staff is typically $2-3/hr? Do you only give 15%. If you do, for shame. and shut up about federal min wage.