Do these products hurt us as contractors.

[Mathew Johnson 123]

I see that there are contractors that are also vendors of wood restoration products. Has anyone lost a job to a homeowner because they bought these products? Also I see that one product line is cheaper than the other... Has anyone tried these. It is a great concept.... 2$ worth of Oxalic and 4$ worth of Sodium Hydroxide / percarbonate in 2 plastic containers. The down side would be getting sued when a homeowner inhales the oxalic or gets sodium hydroxide in thier eyes.

http://www.deckrestorationplus.net/ is the link to one product line - Everette Abrams Line (I think)

and

http://www.restore-a-deck.com/index.html is a link to Ken Fenners Product line.

Both sites look great, I am not sure if the first one is Everette Abrams, I am not sure if he can be a vender of this sort and hold a seat on the PWNA BOD....

Kudos to thier spirit of free enterprise.... as long as it doesn't cost me a deck Job LOL.

[FLORIN 21]

In my opinion I dont think it would. Ken posted a job lead in Wa stating that the customer had a couple coats of sikken and his prod was not strong enough to do the job and the cust. would have to get a proffesional. I could be wrong about the strength maybe Ken can chime in. I think if the homeowner wanted to do it themselves they would do it themselves with the use of these two brands and if they were not available they would use x brand from home improvement stores. The customers that use proffesionals to do their decks either dont want to waste their time or cannot get strong enough chemicals to do a good job. When Ken started posting about his line I started thinking the same thing " Why would somebody want to use my services when there are these kind of products out there" but later thought that there is plenty customers out there and the ones that want to do it themselves werent going to use me in the first place.

Although I might just be trying to convince myself this but hey its what I think.

[PressurePros 249]

I thought about the implications of selling a wood restoration product and what effect it would have on potential work for not just myself but other contractors. The conclusion I have come to is that people that are going to do projects themselves are always going to do so. The people that pay a contractor to perform a service are not suddenly going to start becoming DIY'ers because of a particluar product.

Matthew I think you would be very surprised at the costs of the products. There is far more than $2 and $4 worth of product. The RAD Cleaner has seven compounds including sodium percarbonate, other mild alkalines, and surface active agents. The brightening stage is a blend of surfactants and different types of acids precisely blended to be safer for homeowner use while still being effective and mild enough to not overdry the wood. I cannot speak for the other products ingredients nor its profit margins. Trust me, there is not enough margin to make anyone rich when you factor in marketing designs, website cost, search engine optimization, adwords campaigns, jars, lids, silkscreening, boxes, tape, shipping costs, insurance and material cost unless one dumps a ton of additional money into nationwide marketing and spends countless hours cultivating both consumers and potential distributors. I spend on average 3 hours per day just answering mails, analyzing numbers, making sales calls (add in a $500 cell phone bill this month) working on growth. Insurance to be a product distributor costs about $10,000. All is not as it appears on the surface.

As far as which came first, the chicken or the egg..those in the know are aware what is what. One seller copied the other identically. (I'm flattered) The RAD product line has generated buzz nationwide and abroad. Certified contractor programs are being developed and a contractor series is being introduced next year. I have no intention of competing with Russell, Bob, Greg or any of the other sellers that utilize bulletin boards to reach their customer base. The RAD product line will be expanded to include many more products that both DIY'ers and contractors will find useful. Its an open market and those that are going to compete will of course do so. As far as Everett's product line being in conflict with PWNA guidelines.. The PWNA members need to deal with that.

Matthew, please feel free to give me a call. I don't mind sharing with you the logistics of getting something like this off the ground.

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Ken... I think it is a great concept.... I used the cost analysis as a base example and I surely appreciate the cost of doing business.

With my hospital responsibilities and PWS Inc., the last thing I need it another headache of selling a product line.

It seems like the best way to sell something like this is on QVC or HSN. Even if one netted $3 a unit , on ten thousand units equals 30 Grand profit.

Regarding your PWNA comment, As a past PWNA member, I can honestly say that I feel that members have no power, say or influence on the PWNA BOD... Just my perception though, many members disagree with me - there are 8 of them that I can think of!

[Mathew Johnson 123]

I thought about the implications of selling a wood restoration product and what effect it would have on potential work for not just myself but other contractors. The conclusion I have come to is that people that are going to do projects themselves are always going to do so. The people that pay a contractor to perform a service are not suddenly going to start becoming DIY'ers because of a particluar product.

Matthew I think you would be very surprised at the costs of the products. There is far more than $2 and $4 worth of product. The RAD Cleaner has seven compounds including sodium percarbonate, other mild alkalines, and surface active agents. The brightening stage is a blend of surfactants and different types of acids precisely blended to be safer for homeowner use while still being effective and mild enough to not overdry the wood. I cannot speak for the other products ingredients nor its profit margins. Trust me, there is not enough margin to make anyone rich when you factor in marketing designs, website cost, search engine optimization, adwords campaigns, jars, lids, silkscreening, boxes, tape, shipping costs, insurance and material cost unless one dumps a ton of additional money into nationwide marketing and spends countless hours cultivating both consumers and potential distributors. I spend on average 3 hours per day just answering mails, analyzing numbers, making sales calls (add in a $500 cell phone bill this month) working on growth. Insurance to be a product distributor costs about $10,000. All is not as it appears on the surface.

As far as which came first, the chicken or the egg..those in the know are aware what is what. One seller copied the other identically. (I'm flattered) The RAD product line has generated buzz nationwide and abroad. Certified contractor programs are being developed and a contractor series is being introduced next year. I have no intention of competing with Russell, Bob, Greg or any of the other sellers that utilize bulletin boards to reach their customer base. The RAD product line will be expanded to include many more products that both DIY'ers and contractors will find useful. Its an open market and those that are going to compete will of course do so. As far as Everett's product line being in conflict with PWNA guidelines.. The PWNA members need to deal with that.

Matthew, please feel free to give me a call. I don't mind sharing with you the logistics of getting something like this off the ground.

Ken, I cant pass a buck up LOL! If I were to put it in a local store, is thier distributerships available, private labeling and so forth. If so IM PH Number... I will try to call this week

[Mathew Johnson 123]

In my opinion I dont think it would. Ken posted a job lead in Wa stating that the customer had a couple coats of sikken and his prod was not strong enough to do the job and the cust. would have to get a proffesional. I could be wrong about the strength maybe Ken can chime in. I think if the homeowner wanted to do it themselves they would do it themselves with the use of these two brands and if they were not available they would use x brand from home improvement stores. The customers that use proffesionals to do their decks either dont want to waste their time or cannot get strong enough chemicals to do a good job. When Ken started posting about his line I started thinking the same thing " Why would somebody want to use my services when there are these kind of products out there" but later thought that there is plenty customers out there and the ones that want to do it themselves werent going to use me in the first place.

Although I might just be trying to convince myself this but hey its what I think.

I tend to agree with you.... great post!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

There are always going to be the weekend warriors and diy'ers who will take advantage of these options. I don't mind it especially when we are available to come and fix the mess they make.

Rod!~

[James 625]

About 6 years ago I ran an add for DIY"s in the local large city paper. I don't advertise in it for my biz. That time I thought I would sell products or prep the decks or a consultant fee . All calls wanted their decks done !! I got killed in request for quote's ( large paper). No one, not one wanted to do it ??

Funny thing happened at the local hardware store last Sat. An old friend yelled out my name to say hello. Then he came over to talk( the salesman was with him) we were talking about the Yankee's and he had a SPF can in his hand. So I asked if he was doing his deck. Yes he was and asked my opinion. We chatted and he left. The salesman came to me and asked where he went. I told him I led him down a different path. They sorta of went nut's talking about me in the store ( truevalue). They know nothing about decks in these stores or about what they sell to the consumer.

[JFife 14]

I don't know if I agree with that move or not Diamond Jim.....the fact that this guy was your "friend" makes me give you the benefit of the doubt, but otherwise, I don't meddle in another companies business. If I were doing a sale to a homeowner and the neighbor walked over and said "hey! If you're needing your deck done, I know the best guy in town. Come by when this guy leaves and I'll give you his name." By the time I left, I'd be able to give a concrete answer as to whether or not a size 13EE boot will indeed fit into another man's a__.

Regarding product sales, there are a million analogies, but I always go to this: I know NOTHING about computers. I mean ZIP, ZERO. As long as I am alive, I'll always need someone to do repairs, design work, websites, bookkeeping, etc. for me. I'm also aware that I can buy programs, books, etc. that would teach me how to do it myself. But I have NO interest in that, and don't ever plan to have an interest in it. 75% of my customers are like that with their homes. Heck, I'm kinda like that with my home. I hire out little repairs, etc.

So the trick is to find the customers that have no interest in being a DIY. The ones that have tried and failed are the best. It's just something you have to deal with......every year new guys make the arguement that HomeDepot should stop selling Powerwashers, hurts guys like us, etc. Those are one of those statements that are so profoundly stupid and hypocrytical beyond belief that I never even bother to respond. Like Diamond said, wanna-be DIY'ers a lot of times end up being customers.

[PLD 14]

IMHO, no these products are not a threat. There are people who must try and do things themselves no matter how marginal it works out. These personality types generally make very poor customers as they expect the job done at the prices they pay for materials only...

[Deck Guy 14]

So the trick is to find the customers that have no interest in being a DIY. The ones that have tried and failed are the best.

I agree. I've done many-a-deck for homeowners who had a pressure washer in their garage, but couldn't produce the desired results with it. And I don't even have to explain how many decks I've done after the homeowner stained it. They usually give up after their first failed attempt (lap marks, drips, coating failure due to improper prep, etc...).

[plainpainter 217]

If it was easy - everybody would be doing it - right? I got a 10k roof job coming up next week - not cleaning, I mean ripping and putting up architectural. I do like 1 or 2 roofs a year - and never have to worry about homeowners doing that - god I love the money on roofing.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I don’t think it has any effect. People that dyi will and those who would rather be sitting in a chair watching a ball game will hire.

Either way its marketing for all.

[Mark Williamson 14]

It all comes down to time. What is your time worth? When I first moved into my home, I had to do all the things that I could to save money. Now that I work for myself, my time is worth more than some of the jobs that need to be done. So I have no problem letting someone else do the work.

[Greg R 82]

Our business comes from people who don't have the time or even more the desire to do this work themselves. Wolman has been selling percarb based cleaners and oxalic brighteners to the public for years - this concept isn't remotely new. They've just added to the available products. At one point I was selling direct the the public with the TimberPro products as well and those buying were going to do their own deck if it meant just pressure washing it. This opinion DIY attitude usually changes after the first or second time though :)

[PressurePros 249]

True and false, Greg. I think the keys are:

1) Having a superior product. Sodium percarbonate is just one ingredient in the RAD cleaner. It hands down, 10 out of 10 times outperforms Wolman's or cheaper knock off formulas.

2) Provide the customer with support. Handing a customer a package and saying "now go be a deck restoration professional" will yield lousy results.

I guarantee you, Greg that what I am doing is VERY new. There is international buzz generated with the RAD line. Customer testimonials come in every day. I make sure the customer has an idea what he is doing. If you have any doubts of the abilities of a DIY'er check out the pics below. I was VERY impressed.

Got these this morning. Anybody that has done a trellis knows this guy really did a nice job.

[Deck Guy 14]

I have to wonder though, how much time did he have invested there??? Any anal-retentive can produce results, it's just a matter of having the patience.

I've quoted a couple decks where you could see that they actually started with their wimpy machine, and after awhile of getting nowhere, they called someone (me) who knew how to start and finish the job.

[PressurePros 249]

Larry you should see some of the work some of my customers turn out. I'm talking second story ipe deck construction and it looks good. I think the key with a DIY'er is they love it and they make time to do their projects. They spend the money on the right tools for the job. The above was quoted $4500 for the scope of the work he needed done. I guided him as much as I could and he ended up spending about $800. For $3700 there are those that won't mind the time spent. He and his family can now take a vacation on what they saved.

[Greg R 82]

True and false, Greg. I think the keys are:

1) Having a superior product. Sodium percarbonate is just one ingredient in the RAD cleaner. It hands down, 10 out of 10 times outperforms Wolman's or cheaper knock off formulas.

2) Provide the customer with support. Handing a customer a package and saying "now go be a deck restoration professional" will yield lousy results.

I guarantee you, Greg that what I am doing is VERY new. There is international buzz generated with the RAD line. Customer testimonials come in every day. I make sure the customer has an idea what he is doing. If you have any doubts of the abilities of a DIY'er check out the pics below. I was VERY impressed.

Got these this morning. Anybody that has done a trellis knows this guy really did a nice job.

Ken -

I agree in the fact that Wolmans product is not up to par with others that are available however the strength of their product has some "risk based" blending to it Im sure. For several years I worked with the chemical companies that were blending the TimberPro line trying different variations and the results don't vary much in the "percarb" based formulas. I've used the ES products as well in comparison and been around the block on the surfactants, fillers, and additives. Bottom line is there's little to no difference in the results obtained from the various "commercial" products today. It all boils down to the marketing of the product. Any customer could obtain the results we get given a good product and patience however most will not desire too. It's one of those "dirty jobs" fortunately which keeps us all in business.

I reiterate though - DIY products will never cost us business. Buying the product is the easy part.... using it correctly is a whole different ball game.

[Greg R 82]

True and false, Greg. I think the keys are:

1) Having a superior product. Sodium percarbonate is just one ingredient in the RAD cleaner. It hands down, 10 out of 10 times outperforms Wolman's or cheaper knock off formulas.

2) Provide the customer with support. Handing a customer a package and saying "now go be a deck restoration professional" will yield lousy results.

I guarantee you, Greg that what I am doing is VERY new. There is international buzz generated with the RAD line. Customer testimonials come in every day. I make sure the customer has an idea what he is doing. If you have any doubts of the abilities of a DIY'er check out the pics below. I was VERY impressed.

Got these this morning. Anybody that has done a trellis knows this guy really did a nice job.

Ken -

I agree in the fact that Wolmans product is not up to par with others that are available however the strength of their product has some "risk based" blending to it Im sure. For several years I worked with the chemical companies that were blending the TimberPro line trying different variations and the results don't vary much in the "percarb" based formulas. I've used the ES products as well in comparison and been around the block on the surfactants, fillers, and additives. Bottom line is there's little to no difference in the results obtained from the various "commercial" products today. It all boils down to the marketing of the product. Any customer could obtain the results we get given a good product and patience however most will not desire too. It's one of those "dirty jobs" fortunately which keeps us all in business.

I reiterate though - DIY products will never cost us business. Buying the product is the easy part.... using it correctly is a whole different ball game.

[Greg R 82]

I think the key with a DIY'er is they love it and they make time to do their projects. They spend the money on the right tools for the job.

That is a RARE breed... I guarantee you MOST go to the home improvement stores to get their products for the deck. Good intentions or not it ends up being Thompsons or Olympic. Again all in the marketing. We all know its an inferior product yet they outsell Ready Seal or Woodtux probably 10,000 to 1.

You have a unique customer if they are calling you for advice :)

[James 625]

Very well said Greg..

[RPetry 564]

Greg,

You stated:

For several years I worked with the chemical companies that were blending the TimberPro line trying different variations and the results don't vary much in the "percarb" based formulas.

A question. In your manufacturing experience, could the same or similar be said about commercial NaOH strippers?

[Greg R 82]

Hi Rick,

I can't necessarily speak for the present as more products have made it to market since I "moved on" but generally speaking yes in my experience.

[RPetry 564]

Greg,

Thanks so much for the reply. In my field experience, this seems to be true. I switched NaOH strippers some years back when still learning the trade and thought that my "new" stripper was superior. But with a few more years experience since then, pretty sure than any product difference was not the practical difference.

Think it had more to do with stripper strength, dwell times, temperatures, wood species, and type of finish being removed than any real differences in products. And only time and experience will teach, as stripping is an art.

Thanks again.