Don't Let Your Builder Prep The Ipe Deck

[PressurePros 248]

Ooops. This is a project we are working on now. Woodies will know exactly what happened.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

And you say they prepped this eh? HAHAHAHA!

Sorry. Not funny. Really...can't wait to see the afters Ken.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

Looks like someone tried to sand just the butt joints to get off excess AnchorSeal.

Although, there are all those marks on the steps. Bad wood chisel work on plugs and spot sanding?

[plainpainter 217]

Do I see wand marks all over the place>? Still looks grey.

[PressurePros 248]

All the above. Plugs (near the butt joints) were buzzed with, I'm guessing, a belt sander. We were going to come in last week and prep it and stain it over the weekend but the homeowners have had a construction site for quite a long time so, they put the kibash on us getting in there so they could instead have a get together. The builder, I am assuming, pressure washed the deck to clean it up for the family. This is what we saw.

[Neil_Asheville 114]

Man that hurts! HO should be pissed.

That's not a prep for stain f'up...that's a construction misstep. The best looking and most sound decks i see are face fastened using square head stainless fasteners screwed flush, not countersunk. The EBTY and biscuit fasteners suck. Plugging and sanding is intuitive for the builder, but impossible for us to undo, short of full drum sand.

What's your POA, K?

[PressurePros 248]

Daniel san..Showww me.. sand tha floor!

Neil it looked far better when we left there today. Before I had anyone hook up a hose I called the builder who is actually a great guy. It was almost like he expected my call. He knows its gonna cost. Since alll the screws are countersank and the deck floor is new construction ipe I'm going to have the floor sanded. Have been on the phone all afternoon trying to find a sub.

[RPetry 564]

Neil stated,

The best looking and most sound decks i see are face fastened using square head stainless fasteners screwed flush, not countersunk.

Plugging and sanding is intuitive for the builder, but impossible for us to undo,

True, if you are countersinking without plugging. But ipe' plugs on an ipe' deck look way better than exposed SS fasteners. Don't see how countersinking to 3/8" or so has any structural effect when using 5/4 stock or better. Trimheads seem best.

If countersinking and plugging is normal in NC, I hope the builders are getting a ton of $. What a tedious, time consuming job.

Why would you want to "undo" a countersunk and plugged ipe' deck? A light sanding is normal for us when first prepping ipe', whether stripped or unfinished, plugged or not.

[PressurePros 248]

Rick, how do you sand it? Do you use RO's or a floor sander?

[Neil_Asheville 114]

The 'undo' part is the spot sanding of plugs and the resulting effect after applying finish. I defur all ipe with Osborne, not a sanding, IMO.

Most projects I'm on have iron or cable railing...I like that combo of metal / wood. The face screws (when done neatly) looks good...to me! When plugs are sanded and oil applied, sanded spots stand out as shiney against a mostly matte finish. Most ipe decks get the EBTY's here and trim boards are sunk and plugged.

/neil

[RPetry 564]

Ken,

We use 7" R.O.'s with 60 grit Klingspor paper, usually two of us so it goes pretty fast. Most times very light, it seems to go about as fast as a Makita and 3M pads.

Neil,

Have yet to try an Osbourn brush. Know McMaster Carr has something very similar and one of their distribution centers is about 6 miles away. Is it faster than 3M pads?

Do it for all hardwoods. Stripped a mahogany Aussie oil job today and will give it a quick sanding tomorrow if the weather stays dry.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

McMaster Carr ships fast too! We get our Osborn brushes from them.

Beth

[Neil_Asheville 114]

You kjnow, Rick, I haven't tried the defelting pads on ipe. Once I started using the osbornes I didn't look back. Those things just might work with the smooth surface and nothing to snag on. Hated those things on splinters or nail heads!

You might find the 60grit is overkill on ipe. I do about 1000ft an hour defurring with the osborne, makes for a far better finish on ipe.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If you are going to sand it down to even out the bleep-ups, would you not want to let it then age a bit prior to sealing it? Ipe is one wood we advise folks to let sit and age a few months for better results. Sand, let age, wash, prep, seal. You have some work to do to even that out, and my concern would be that once it is evened out - you are back to much newer wood...

Beth :cup:

ps we love Osborn brushes, but the 3M pads are great on ipe - Neil is correct.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

My take..This is not a restore and so it just seems builder needs a little help with final prep...aka- Fenner... If it were a few weeks down road and pics were after anyone good got hold of it there would be no issue or contemplation of whether anything of the build or prep is at issue. Is just unfinished.

I don't see customers or builders building such a fine deck having any need for keeping a down the raod "undo" at heart. The plugging and use of the IPE in first place signifies a plan of long term that likely includes sealing and protection. This deck could last 30 to 60 years or more properly cared for...who knows?.

IMO plugging is mainly a matter of cosmetic taste and yet on a long lasting deck like this I do see advantages of preventing foot wear of the planks around the countersink and the added prevention against water entry.

I'm opposed to letting the wood weather. Always best to try and prevent cyclical weather damage by sealing/staining. Ya just make it known that it will likely take stain better later ona second time around in a year or two.

Belt or drum it, stain it..it'll be beautiful deck no matter what wood.

[James 624]

Plugs on a deck are a pain in the Donkey. They shrink and swell different than tha boards . OK for inside but not in the outside. I used a 160 pound buffing machine with 3m pads this year on Ipe' that worked very well.

Finishes on ipe' do much better if you wait to apply. More prep work but the results and longevity of the finish is better. It also depends on the product to be used

[MMI Enterprises 289]

What James.. you not had opportunity to try my King Kevster's Velvet Elvis?..haha

Basically is a 20" osborn as it is impregnated and made of same stuff.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I'm opposed to letting the wood weather. Always best to try and prevent cyclical weather damage by sealing/staining. Ya just make it known that it will likely take stain better later ona second time around in a year or two.

Belt or drum it, stain it..it'll be beautiful deck no matter what wood.

If it was a soft wood I would agree. I do not agree where ipe is concerned.

Ipe is not very porous. If you let it age and dry a little you are going to get a little better absorption rate. Gives the finish a little more to hold onto.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Beth,

A little more to hold onto equals a little more degredation or grain shrinkage or warping, etc. no matter the wood as that comes by way of natural oil loss. Can't quantify a waiting time for stain penetration or adhesion with any wood as being more beneficial over other concerns of dimensional changes to the wood when it is not known how long it been since tree was fell, cut, shipped, stored in a yard, laid in builders yard or truck, etc. If water moisture is low enough and it cleaned properly then ya stain it. If you want a little more surface adhesion then rough it up more is my best advice for ya.

All wood is cut dimensionally with it's current natural oil moisture level in mind and that is what you want to either keep in mind or mimic over offering a one shot stain that is to last a few years which perhaps seems better sounding to some HO or some contractors bottom line. Shoot it, then shoot it again if need be down the road.

Interior fine furniture finishers that dry their wood or even exterior builders would not want some 3rd party wood worker to let their work be weathered further before staining. They cut, build, glue, and sand joints to be smooth and fine not muffed up.

Sorry if it seems to offend but it needs said..

Pure and simple what yer saying is some of the poorest advice still spewn on the boards. End of story.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Well that's pretty funny - because there are a number of us who feel this way - go back and read James's (Jim) posts. I don't see you jumping on his caboose.

You may not agree with it, but it is common practice in many states now and people are getting results. Ipe is not the same as cedar, or pine or the like.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

I see what he said..

Finishes on ipe' do much better if you wait to apply. More prep work but the results and longevity of the finish is better. It also depends on the product to be used

..and it addresses the finish doing much better and NOT the wood. In fact I read it that he acknowledges there will be more prep. Go ahead, your welcome to explain what you think he may mean by that. Does he mean to say you will have to chemically remove only weathered wood fiber caused by uv graying? or could he be eluding to other chores such as warped wood joint, plug, or general sanding of muffed up grain?

People want smooth wood as it was built and intended to be.

Your welcome to your opinion that they don't and so is he if he feels same.

Your also welcome to pay a deck installer to install a nice smoothly sanded deck on your property and then not seal it up right away. You'll be sanding it a few down the road before your do end up staining so as to make it a showplace to be proud of. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

My responses in blue:

Beth,

A little more to hold onto equals a little more degredation or grain shrinkage or warping, etc. no matter the wood as that comes by way of natural oil loss.

Ipe is dimensionally stable and does not lose oils per se but the extractives which give it it's color, resistance to decay, insects and impermeability. I must add that it is stable if the cuts are end-sealed. Can't quantify a waiting time for stain penetration or adhesion with any wood (Ipe is not just any wood) as being more beneficial over other concerns of dimensional changes to the wood when it is not known how long it been since tree was fell, cut, shipped, stored in a yard, laid in builders yard or truck, etc. Irrelevant. If water moisture is low enough (Newly installed Ipe has a 35-45% W.M.C. which is too high for any product application) and it cleaned properly then ya stain it. If you want a little more surface adhesion then rough it up more is my best advice for ya.

There should be nothing to quantify. Ipe is tremendously dense and full of extractives. These extractives are what prevent penetration of sealers. 6 months of weathering for Ipe is nothing compared to it's life expectancy of at least 50 years. Allowing it to weather a short time gives it time to open up and lose some of the extractives through natures graces. Every tried to sand newly installed Ipe? You'll get nowhere fast and the sandpaper will only end up clogged with the resins and extractives that bleed from the heat created by the fiction, and now you have a varnish to remove as well.

Weathered Ipe accepts sealers deeper than would be possible otherwise and this gives a longer lasting result. That should be your concern in wood restoration...making the product last as long as possible.

All wood is cut dimensionally with it's current natural oil moisture level in mind and that is what you want to either keep in mind or mimic over offering a one shot stain that is to last a few years (with Ipe, you wont find anything that will last much beyond a year, and telling a customer to the contrary is irresponsible. Education, education, education.) which perhaps seems better sounding to some HO or some contractors bottom line. Shoot it, then shoot it again if need be down the road.

You sound like you are guessing to me. This is not good advise to give a homeowner that they should expect questionably to spend twice as much to get the same result if left alone for a time since in that statement alone you are not even giving any definitives.

Interior fine furniture finishers that dry their wood or even exterior builders would not want some 3rd party wood worker to let their work be weathered further before staining. They cut, build, glue, and sand joints to be smooth and fine not muffed up. We are not talking about interior wood here now are we? Ipe installed on exterior structures will not accept sealers without either applying acetone first to temporarily emulsify the resins or washing with an acid to pull out some of the extractives which will unfortunately dull the color.

Furniture finishers used cured wood. Builders use kiln dried wood. deck builders used freshly cut wood (Ipe that is).

Sorry if it seems to offend but it needs said..

Pure and simple what yer saying is some of the poorest advice still spewn on the boards. End of story.

Not compared to that diatribe you just laid out there...

You have much to learn about wood grasshopper.

:yoda:

Rod!~

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I see what he said..

..and it addresses the finish doing much better and NOT the wood. In fact I read it that he acknowledges there will be more prep. Go ahead, your welcome to explain what you think he may mean by that. Does he mean to say you will have to chemically remove only weathered wood fiber caused by uv graying? or could he be eluding to other chores such as warped wood joint, plug, or general sanding of muffed up grain?

People want smooth wood as it was built and intended to be.

Your welcome to your opinion that they don't and so is he if he feels same.

Your also welcome to pay a deck installer to install a nice smoothly sanded deck on your property and then not seal it up right away. You'll be sanding it a few down the road before your do end up staining so as to make it a showplace to be proud of. :)

I am talking about the finish just like he is.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Ipe is dimensionally stable and does not lose oils per se but the extractives which give it it's color, resistance to decay, insects and impermeability. I must add that it is stable if the cuts are end-sealed.

..as if natural oils, resins, and extractives are pretty much not interchangeable. Extractives are anything that can be extracted.

Irrelevant

How is the unknown time spent weathering before you get to it any less irrelevent then the time you would wait after you see it and before you decide to stain it?. Clock starts ticking as soon as tree is felled and wood is opened up to outside as it is about 'evaporation' whether you recognize the naturals as being oil,resin, or as extractives. What yer saying is you want people to give up their decay and insect, etc. resistance for sake of putting in products that will only last a year as it won't penetrate anyway. Build it, shoot it, shoot it again. You wait for extractives to make room then you done made room for dimensional change night in night out while your away. Unwanted freeze/thaw and uv graying may take some toll.

(Newly installed Ipe has a 35-45% W.M.C. which is too high for any product application)

Perhaps that depends on many factors, regardless that is why I said if moisture is low enough.

There should be nothing to quantify. yea except for 'something to hold onto' point made by Beth that I happen to disagree with. Ipe is tremendously dense and full of extractives. These extractives are what prevent penetration of sealers. 6 months of weathering for Ipe is nothing compared to it's life expectancy of at least 50 years. Allowing it to weather a short time gives it time to open up and lose some of the extractives through natures graces.How many customers or builders you know let it or can get away with letting it sit 6 month? Every tried to sand newly installed Ipe? You'll get nowhere fast and the sandpaper will only end up clogged with the resins and extractives that bleed from the heat created by the fiction, and now you have a varnish to remove as well.Let's ask Ken's builder...looks sanded and sandable to me. Is ken not going to sand it?

Weathered Ipe accepts sealers deeper than would be possible otherwise and this gives a longer lasting result. That should be your concern in wood restoration...making the product last as long as possible.Yes it should be, that is why I won't be leaving IPE or any other wood to weather to loose extractives in order to make space for sealer as deep as some you would have it. Shoot it again every year anyways right?

You sound like you are guessing to me. This is not good advise to give a homeowner that they should expect questionably to spend twice as much to get the same result if left alone for a time since in that statement alone you are not even giving any definitives.

Guess what?. You say yerself nothing lasts more then a year so why try for a few? shoot it, then shoot it again is not guessing or testing. It is what most say or imply is needed for IPE.

We are not talking about interior wood here now are we? Ipe installed on exterior structures will not accept sealers without either applying acetone first to temporarily emulsify the resins or washing with an acid to pull out some of the extractives which will unfortunately dull the color.

Ah but now you come out with a solution to being able to seal and stain an IPE at what point in convo?. What you fail to recognize is that all that time of them extractives coming out there is cyclical temps at play as well to the less protected outer surfaces where the extractives are not present. If you reread you'll see where I said and implied proper prep and cleaning along with low enough moisture. I am not for allowing cyclical damage. What you sound like your pushing is that some might try or advocate shooting an unprepped wood surface? Apparently Ken is gonna have to sand and then remove some extractives OR sand and then wait 6 month before he is gonna stain or seal this deck..laughable

Ever consider using turpentine products on Ipe?

ps-

All wood is cut dimensionally with it's current natural oil moisture level in mind and that is what you want to either keep in mind or mimic over offering a one shot stain that is to last a few years (with Ipe, you wont find anything that will last much beyond a year, and telling a customer to the contrary is irresponsible. Education, education, education.)

Don't think anyone said anything would last much beyond a year, certainly not I nor you ,so tell me again why it best to let this IPE sit unstained for 6 month please.. . seriously, what have you got to loose or gain by staining right away or not staining right away? Ok since you like education..you have a smooth surface to loose to microscopic splintered surface at the least due to freeze thaw while yer waiting for spring.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

..as if natural oils, resins, and extractives are pretty much not interchangeable. Extractives are anything that can be extracted.

How is the unknown time spent weathering before you get to it any less irrelevent then the time you would wait after you see it and before you decide to stain it?. Clock starts ticking as soon as tree is felled and wood is opened up to outside as it is about 'evaporation' whether you recognize the naturals as being oil,resin, or as extractives. What yer saying is you want people to give up their decay and insect, etc. resistance for sake of putting in products that will only last a year as it won't penetrate anyway. Build it, shoot it, shoot it again. You wait for extractives to make room then you done made room for dimensional change night in night out while your away. Unwanted freeze/thaw and uv graying may take some toll.

Perhaps that depends on many factors, regardless that is why I said if moisture is low enough.

Guess what?. You say yerself nothing lasts more then a year so why try for a few? shoot it, then shoot it again is not guessing or testing. It is what most say or imply is needed for IPE.

Ah but now you come out with a solution to being able to seal and stain an IPE at what point in convo?. What you fail to recognize is that all that time of them extractives coming out there is cyclical temps at play as well to the less protected outer surfaces where the extractives are not present. If you reread you'll see where I said and implied proper prep and cleaning along with low enough moisture. I am not for allowing cyclical damage. What you sound like your pushing is that some might try or advocate shooting an unprepped wood surface? Apparently Ken is gonna have to sand and then remove some extractives OR sand and then wait 6 month before he is gonna stain or seal this deck..laughable

Ever consider using turpentine products on Ipe?

ps-

Don't think anyone said anything would last much beyond a year, certainly not I nor you ,so tell me again why it best to let this IPE sit unstained for 6 month please.. . seriously, what have you got to loose or gain by staining right away or not staining right away? Ok since you like education..you have a smooth surface to loose to microscopic splintered surface at the least due to freeze thaw while yer waiting for spring.

Ok Kevin, how long would you expect a finish to last on Ipe that was newly installed, vs slightly aged - first installation of product? In your opinion, are we talking weeks or months in the difference in the life of the finish. I know what we have seen (both our own installations and also installations of builders and other contractors in our area after a brand new install of wood). Let's hear what you have seen specifically.

Besides, do you not inspect a deck before taking on a job? Can't you tell what shape the wood is in, the quality of the lumber, the quality of the installation etc? Was is fastened well, did they use anchor seal on the ends etc? We check these things and discuss the deck with the owner before doing anything. As you say, education...

Beth :cup:

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin, when you decide to open your mind and stop being argumentative for the sake of having the last word, you may learn something. My basis for this statement is this; I have given you a reply in order to present you with a basis for understanding and yet you ignored it and still ask the same question.

Perhaps someone else has another word set that will get the point across better and help you understand why the stand on allowing Ipe to weather is proving to be beneficial in applying a sealer and getting a longer lasting result.

BTW, there unfortunately are a significant number of builders (deck etc) that tell their customers to wait 6 months to a year before doing anything to it while on the contrary, The USDA Forestry Labs and The A.W.P.A. also recommend sealing within the first 2 weeks of construction completion. This is in regard to P.T. lumber, not Ipe. It's quite a different animal. With the same fire rating as steel, sinks in water and has no known natural insect enemies with the exception of the marine borer mite, 2nd hardest wood in the world next to Brazilian rosewood, it is in a league all it's own on how to be cared for.

We have had to do some research and rethinking on how to deal with this exotic wood species since conventional methods were not giving our customers what they were looking for in a lasting result.

Believe it or not, Ipe doesn't really need to be treated at all with the exception of aesthetics. It can go grey and hold up just fine and quite outlast the best pressure treated lumber. But! People want it to look like it does when it is newly constructed or when it is wet. Those are very eye popping and rich looks to the wood. Getting it to stay that way is another business. That's where experience comes in.

Do your research.

Rod!~