Don't Let Your Builder Prep The Ipe Deck

[PressurePros 248]

Ooops. This is a project we are working on now. Woodies will know exactly what happened.

[James 624]

Kevin do you take care of IPe? I have for over 12 years!

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Ok Kevin, how long would you expect a finish to last on Ipe that was newly installed, vs slightly aged - first installation of product? In your opinion, are we talking weeks or months in the difference in the life of the finish. I know what we have seen (both our own installations and also installations of builders and other contractors in our area after a brand new install of wood). Let's hear what you have seen specifically.

Besides, do you not inspect a deck before taking on a job? Can't you tell what shape the wood is in, the quality of the lumber, the quality of the installation etc? Was is fastened well, did they use anchor seal on the ends etc? We check these things and discuss the deck with the owner before doing anything. As you say, education...

Beth :cup:

What I seen specifically is a combination of You, Rod, and James go on about how the most important thing is to get wood to last as long as possable yet you want to let it age so yer finish can still only last a year or so. Also seen that you believe the only need for to stain ipe is for customers desire of a deeper/richer/ wet look but you wait to deliver it for 6 months even though you have a solution to remove enough extractives to allow some penetration..hence I seen disregard to freeze/thaw that splinters top surface which happens to offer part of that 'hold' you mentioned. Your hold is not just by way of penetration absorbtion..it also comes by way of surface degradation. Also seen said condition up in Truckee but is irrelevent as I don't regularly care for ipe and so what I do with ipe is of no concern. Also seen it sanded with no problems. Also seen it get stained with no issues of fade or wear notable a year into it.

What I haven't seen yet is anything new here in this thread in way of education not already offered in forum or readily available on other sites or from book yet some would have it that the last bit in here is about educating me.What am I waiting to see?..Am waiting to see Ken sand that deck and stain it before the cows go out to range again.

James, no offense but the one liner attempt to play yer experience is lame and tiring..., you ever actually put up? Aka- Where was your eperience when people needed wtw to dry? Never happened did it?. You went and supposedly shown a bunch of folk a simple way and yet far as I ever saw you never shared. I felt that was like hanging people out to dry..pretty much just like yer ipe.

Rod, yep am a bit arguementative these past few days... probably due to being laid up and on pain killers. Regardless am entitled to my opinion that there no sense in letting ipe age without stain anymore then it already has.

But hey if you want to see diservice to customer in allowing their wood to age I would be glad to help you out.....I take a fresh board, stain half, caliper measure it's thickness, and place it suspended up in the weather around Tahoe over the winter. I'll go back in summer and macro photograph the untreated surface compared to the treated and check out it's straightness and then recaliper measure it's thickness after cleaning.

If it just as straight, just as thick, and cross grain roughness is same on the untreated then I could eat crow. Granted it may be extremely marginal but who cares. Am not into adding wear to customers wood if I can avoid.....stain it, stain it again. :)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I don't regularly care for ipe and so what I do with ipe is of no concern.

You got that right. ;)

Have a good day, hope you feel better. It's no fun being laid up on pain pills. Makes a person cranky... ;)

Beth

[RPetry 564]

Neil said;

You might find the 60grit is overkill on ipe. I do about 1000ft an hour defurring with the osborne, makes for a far better finish on ipe.

Grit may depend on the type of finish you are using. For curing stains such as WTW, 100 may be fine. As we normally use RS, have found a courser grit is better for all species to allow for better stain penetration.

Man, 1000 sq. ft. per hour? Either you guys are superhuman, I'm half dead, or I have got to get an Osbourn or knockoff.

Jim said,

Plugs on a deck are a pain in the Donkey. They shrink and swell different than tha boards .

Now that you mention it I do remember having to do a 2nd sanding on my own ipe' and plugs a year after installing the wood. They did swell slightly in the first year. That was about 3 years ago and the plugs have remained dimensionally stable since then.

Kevin,

Ipe' is different. I would put it on a durability level 2nd to old growth Burmese Teak. Read somewhere that Hyde Park in London has teak benches remilled from ship hulls in the late 1800's that are still in service!

Ever clean fairly new ipe'? Your rinse water looks like blood. The wood is just loaded with natural oils, resins, or "extractives".

NYC started using ipe' for some exterior use in the '60's, and part of Atlantic City's ipe' boardwalk has been in service close to 30 years. This wood has never been stained and is holding up just fine.

Point is, if you want that "gee wiz" appearance, you have to get rid of the natural surface "extractives" before you apply any stain. Otherwise, the stain will weather off in a few months. Worked on a new customers ipe' this summer. The initial application of Messmer's lasted ~ 6 weeks due to improper prep.

Know it. Best thing I ever did to my own ipe' deck was to strip off the old ATO and let it just sit and weather for a year.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

You got that right. ;)

Have a good day, hope you feel better. It's no fun being laid up on pain pills. Makes a person cranky... ;)

Beth

Thanx Beth, I take it sincerely:lgangel:

People want it to look like it does when it is newly constructed

hmm.. apparently ipe can and does show wear within 6 month as the people want it to look like it does when it is newly constructed..imagine that. :lglolly:;)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

It's like with a new car - you never want to see that first ding, and you hate it when the new car smell is gone. Ipe is a luxurious wood - looks rich, and people like the idea of an exterior wood looking like it would inside the home. Then again, there is no such thing as maintenance free either.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Thanx Rick. I agree it's got to be different, as it is different. Never said it wasn't you know.

Couple questions....Is your decks smoothness the same across the grain as when before you let it weather a year?. Did you try to remove some the extractives with solvents before you ever stained it? I'll assume all the wood is just as straight and also goes perhaps without any surface degredation from when first installed until you say otherwise. I also assume you never ever sanded it or felt a need to sand it cause it clogs paper and you would not want to contribute to making varnish or change anything of it's orginal profile that the builder left it in.

Btw, Was there any new test results from the differing acid use? Haven't checked thread in awhile...

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Thanx Rick. I agree it's got to be different, as it is different. Never said it wasn't you know.

Couple questions....Is your decks smoothness the same across the grain as when before you let it weather a year?. Did you try to remove some the extractives with solvents before you ever stained it? I'll assume all the wood is just as straight and also goes perhaps without any surface degredation from when first installed until you say otherwise. I also assume you never ever sanded it or felt a need to sand it cause it clogs paper and you would not want to contribute to making varnish or change anything of it's orginal profile that the builder left it in.

Btw, Was there any new test results from the differing acid use? Haven't checked thread in awhile...

He posted some new pics the other day. The puppy peed on his homework. :)

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Btw, This just in!!...Regardless to any possable surface degredation and somewhat to the credit of both Rod and myself you can get a product to stain a ipe deck and get it to last longer then a year. Not by Rod's method of acetoning to make room but by my fully tested method for penetration. ...You take concrete dye and mix it with acetone and laqcuer thinner and apply liberally for to acheive penetration of a non oil based dye.. hehe, you could also spray it with Scott's magic silica water/densifier and let it turn to glass to prevent any unbelieved degradations but you really don't need to as the stuff lasts forever just about. j/k..but seriously, give it a shot ..haaaa :)

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/diyers-ask-pros/11856-need-advice-sealing-our-deck.html

[James 624]

Kevin, your advise seems to come from the back of a Sealer's can or something you just read from the Western Red Cedar Ass woodcare check list.. When I started dealing with Ipe there was stuff (sealers) just comming on the market or had no history to believe in. So I came up with my own method's.You advise and I give advice from fact ( trial and error). I don't use these boards as much as I did . People just call me because of my expertise with sealers and wood.For the most part" I'm dead on".

As for WTW, Rus has the photos and product was given. I didn't handle it on the boards. I was looking for others views which was confirmed with phone contact.

You have a theory about Ipe' . I have probably the most experience with it. The only thing being done with a sealer on Ipe is to pervent it from turning grey!

You will see the different views develope over the next few years concerning WTW on Ipe. You will see views change when some people get over 5 years experience with it.

It's more fun to see people's views change with Ipe to the way's I stated a few years ago about dealing with it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin,

Rod avoids using acetone as much as possible - some products require it others do not.

Beth

[MMI Enterprises 289]

yup fair enough James to think I get it from back of a can since you don't know me and we are worlds apart. Is yer opinion. But between you and I, I get it from the field and if something I say is just an untested idea I use proper language to say and imply such...

Am sorta shocked that you been doing ipe for as many years as you have and have not said either way if you get the uv gray protection to last much more then a year or not..Maybe you did but I missed it. Maybe them 5 year experience guys have left you in dust and don't even visit this silly place of procrastination and 'no can do' attitude.

My tiddle of wtw issue surrounding you is that I asked you to share up the info on wtw back then and but nope ya never did out of some obvious selfishness and will to ignore peoples need.

But anyways, while some you sit and continue business as usual playing around with same o'le same o'le others will start dyeing ipe to great success is my feeling..We can reread this in 1 to 10 year and laugh at peoples foolishness..haha

psst- I say dye as stain always seems to be interprited as oil basing.

[PressurePros 248]

The key points made in this back and forth banter..

• Finishing is done to slow the wood from turning gray.

• The sugars and oils at the surface should be emulsified during the prep process for a finish to have any hope of retaining a fresh appearance for longer than a couple of months.

• Letting the wood age too long will increase the stain/sealer's bite but at the cost of a rougher surface. Both sides arguements are valid. I find that by the time a builder is done constructing an ipe deck the wood has aged enough to finish. Waiting longer produces diminishing return (ie a rougher surface for the sake of maybe a month or two of extra finish life)

My added point on finish: If one tries to get penetrating oils into ipe they are fighting the wood versus working with its inherent natural repelling tendency . You have mils of surface with which to work your finish into. Thus my choice for a product is one that cures quickly.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

The key points made in this back and forth banter..

• Finishing is done to slow the wood from turning gray.

• The sugars and oils at the surface should be emulsified during the prep process for a finish to have any hope of retaining a fresh appearance for longer than a couple of months.

• Letting the wood age too long will increase the stain/sealer's bite but at the cost of a rougher surface. Both sides arguements are valid. I find that by the time a builder is done constructing an ipe deck the wood has aged enough to finish. Waiting longer produces diminishing return (ie a rougher surface for the sake of maybe a month or two of extra finish life)

My added point on finish: If one tries to get penetrating oils into ipe they are fighting the wood versus working with its inherent natural repelling tendency . You have mils of surface with which to work your finish into. Thus my choice for a product is one that cures quickly.

Ken always has knack of summing things up so well. I await the photographic plates.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

The key points made in this back and forth banter..

• Finishing is done to slow the wood from turning gray.

• The sugars and oils at the surface should be emulsified during the prep process for a finish to have any hope of retaining a fresh appearance for longer than a couple of months.

• Letting the wood age too long will increase the stain/sealer's bite but at the cost of a rougher surface. Both sides arguements are valid. I find that by the time a builder is done constructing an ipe deck the wood has aged enough to finish. Waiting longer produces diminishing return (ie a rougher surface for the sake of maybe a month or two of extra finish life)

My added point on finish: If one tries to get penetrating oils into ipe they are fighting the wood versus working with its inherent natural repelling tendency . You have mils of surface with which to work your finish into. Thus my choice for a product is one that cures quickly.

............and sometimes, that month or two of extra finish life is the difference in keeping a client happy and returning for years....it's their deck, and should be their choice once you educate them. We will seal them sooner, but most opt for a couple more months of life in the finish. Isn't it better to get them in a routine they are comfortable with and keep the deck maintained than it is for them to get frustrated and stop caring for it altogether? We have seen that happen too. Everyone wants to get the best bang for the buck. But no one want to feel like they are spending money to watch a finish fail before it needs to.

Beth

[PressurePros 248]

Just playing devils advocate here, Beth.. what if those two months are December and January? Either way its one season and done. (I do have decks going on 18 months and they are not graying) I'm not even sure one would get the extra two months, its just theory without actually doing the testing on multiple samples in multiple climates.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Ok, Kens being the diplomat here so we all have to toe the line...not! ;)

JK though. Getting the majority of a year with a sealer still intact on Ipe is quite an accomplishment and I am not talking about cheating and having tree coverage either, this is full sun exposure.

The products installed vary from WTW to C.A.T.O. b4 the voc changes.

Still haven't had the time to go and check on these for about 3 months which is past the first year mark on a few of them.

A recent one has sikkens dek on it (customer previously installed, part covered porch 2nd level and the other we had to sand back to bare and reapply as it was cloudy from dew after the HO's application last year) and I am cringing due to the fact that there are some detrimental factors surrounding this particular job including a section with < 2' air flow below and then the steps have a backing on them which helps it to retain water even further. I expect this one to last barely a year due to the nature of the product installed.

Rod!~

[Scott Paul 164]

hehe, you could also spray it with Scott's magic silica water/densifier and let it turn to glass to prevent any unbelieved degradations but you really don't need to as the stuff lasts forever just about. j/k..but seriously, give it a shot ..haaaa :)

http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/diyers-ask-pros/11856-need-advice-sealing-our-deck.html

You cannot apply the Cretowood to IPE or any Ironwood type product. It is to dense.

[RPetry 564]

Kevin asked,

Is your decks smoothness the same across the grain as when before you let it weather a year?. Did you try to remove some the extractives with solvents before you ever stained it? I'll assume all the wood is just as straight and also goes perhaps without any surface degredation from when first installed until you say otherwise. I also assume you never ever sanded it or felt a need to sand it cause it clogs paper and you would not want to contribute to making varnish or change anything of it's orginal profile that the builder left it in.

I always have sanded the ipe' before finishing and I'm the builder. I have never used any solvent on customers or my own ipe'. I would never sand any wood without first prepping it. Kind of like using a harsh rubbing compound into your car finish without first washing it.

Tore out the old PT and reskinned with ipe' in March of 2004. Sometime early that spring, cleaned with percarb / brightened with citric, let dry, and sanded with 60 grit. Needed sanding as even if you are careful with a wood chisel, the plugs are not flush. Stained with one app of the old formula Aussie oil.

Next spring, did the same (minus sanding) and started lambswooling Assie oil. Did not like the look and decided to strip. After stripping, ipe' will fuzz up some and as Jim reminded me, the ipe' plugs had swelled a little bit that first year. And at least the old ATO had friggin' tung oil in it that did not all come out from the NaOH. So stripped, citric acid brightened, sanded and lambswooled a fresh coat of the old Aussie oil.

Come spring of 2006, decided to take a different tack. Stripped, brightened, sanded out the tung and let the ipe' sit in the sun, rain, and snow for a year. Bought a new teak table and chairs and also let the teak weather naturally for a year. This spring percarb cleaned, citric brightened, sanded, and applied Ready Seal to the ipe' and teak.

Pics after 6 months are at: http://www.thegrimescene.com/forums/wood-cleaning-restoration-decks-fences-etc/10202-thoughts-oxalic-ipe-10.html

I'm tired of yearly stripping and sanding of my own ipe'. My thoughts are with Ready Seal, next spring will be a light bleach/soap mix, a quick scrub, and a hose rinse. No pressure washing, no sanding. Throw down an app of oil and get back to paying wood jobs. My hope is that as more RS gets into the ipe', might get a true year out of the stain. Be interesting to see if any pigment makes it to next spring and how much oil the ipe' will take on maintenance.

Ken said;

If one tries to get penetrating oils into ipe they are fighting the wood versus working with its inherent natural repelling tendency . You have mils of surface with which to work your finish into.

I do not think this is necessarily true. After letting the ipe' weather for a year and prepping as described above, my helper was able to hand brush with natural bristles, two separate apps of Ready Seal into the ipe'. No wiping, no mineral spirits, no puddling. Certainly no where near the amount of a softwood, but all that oil, resin, and pigment went somewhere and it had to be more than a few mils into the wood.

[James 624]

Ken, what is emulsification of sugars and oils?

And in the case of WTW and how long it last and the maint. of. Let's say it is not Nirvana and has been way over hyped . I had less issue's my own way. It's scary to here of what other's are doing for maint.Stripping the finish off or sanding off. The 3 I did last year I concluded it's better to remove the finish but they are easy 5 to 6 hundred sqft. Not one person I taked to has gotten a year out of the product on Ipe'. Now I'm having mold issue's with it.

I think the only way a deck can last 18 months with WTW(ipe) is in a dream or on a covered porch thats not walked on.

The other scary thing is how much I used this year on large decks. I do not like leaving a deck with doubt

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Thanx Rick.. did ya say if there is a difference in roughness across the grain?

Concerning ATO... is only a one year product regardless of what ya put it on from what the CAN implies so no one should expect more... just punnin ya James... haha..I might be thinking of another product actually in the SPF stuff.....but now come on James.. emulsification is the single most important thing involved in stripping anything.. you know what emulsifying is.. :)

Scott, my Creto comment was somewhat tounge in cheek in a joking manner. But hey so is the ipe denser then the concrete or just that the oils repel the water based consistancy of it? stick the silica in a wetter solvent maybe ahe?

Regardless I would be interested in thoughts on the dye process mentioned. If ya can't get the creto silica in then just straight clear mineral oil it regular over the dye..or don't if it decent climate and low foot traffic. Concrete dye about same but better then RS at getting in there. Really should be no worry on the solvent use as everyone knows the oil based stains carrier we commonly use is about same.

[PressurePros 248]

Jim, did you use pure wood tux? I remember hearing either from one of your posts or through the grapevine that you were mixing it with RS. Thats not WT, thats an experiment in coatings chemistry. You also used the spring version of Tux which unfortunately was a different animal.

A customer I did 18 months ago visits this forum. I don't want to put them on the spot but if they are reading this and wish to reply maybe we can make dreams a reality for the guru.

[James 624]

Ken, I've talked to others who use the products and none are getting more than 8 to 12 months. Its Wtw pure and the three I did last was the good stuff.

Ken, I thought you would have a better response ?So if I leave the 3 decks until spring and then strip them I can say I got 18 months? I have put alot of time and effort into this product and the end resuts are becomming questionable.

Kevin, where is stripping a concern with new wood or when a coating isn't present? ( emulsification)

[PressurePros 248]

Jim, it all depends on what type of subjective finish appearance you are talking about. You mentioned this:

"The only thing being done with a sealer on Ipe is to pervent it from turning grey!" - Jim Foley

By your definition, a sealer is working if the ipe is not turning gray. I don't disagree with that. I'm also not saying every ipe deck lasts 18 months. I said that I have customers decks (and my own mahogany deck) that have lasted 18 months (without turning gray). Of course the finish is markedly faded and needs service soon but for all intents and purposes, it was protected for that time period.

Jim, sometimes what you say is hypocritical of things you have said previously again and again. One of those things is that you say that you know best about wood. You base that on real world experience. Again, I am not denying that you know your stuff and have more experience than almost everyone. But it strikes me as a little off kilter that you have VERY little experience with WT yet will take every opportunity to make disparaging comments about it. Then when you have to defend a weak position you say you have talked to others about it? That's not your personal experience Jim, its rehashing of rhetoric. If someone came on here and said, "Ready Seal sucks" and based it on working with it a few months you would be the first cat to have his hair stand on end. Think about that. I have seen you do it. You'd probably have even more to say if someone made that statement after doing 3 decks and defended it with "others told me it sucks too".

As a final presentation: If someone gets 8-12 months from Product A and Product B last 3-6 months one can safely assume that Product A is 200% better than Product B.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Kevin, where is stripping a concern with new wood or when a coating isn't present? ( emulsification)

James, I'm the one all doped up here, why I got to explain a simple point?

Ken used term emulsification...You asked in not so many words what the act of 'emulsification' of sugars and oils was.... I declared to you that you for sure know what emulsification is by way of using the act of stripping as an example.

For to be informative for benefit of any unknowing readers:

Anytime you are 'stripping' you are removing something from a surface. In this case we are not limited to our artificial topical/penetrating coatings in using the term. It is being applied to the natural oils,resins, extractives of the wood itself. Started by Rod and elaborated on by myself, Ken, Rick (blood) and perhaps you as well, it is fair use of word.

Anytime you are 'emulsifying' you are taking component A which is in liquid state via act of 'stripping'/'disolving'/'suspending' and blending it with component B which is a 'carrier'/'solvent'.

Coming after said acts of stripping,disolving,suspending it is fair use of the word emulisify in order to cut to the chase.

Why I have just as much right as another to discuss such acts swell enough one may ask? Real world experience on the order of 29 years (21 professionally). Not on IPE or exterior wood mind you... that is why I respect and do listen to the specific advices and imput on these boards. I think some just don't take too kindly to being stuck in a box with unchanging limits..myself included. I prefure to be optimist and look for solutions. Just some insight into my person.

..anyways, carry on folks..the bush soaking threads are calling me to the wild.. :)