Ariz. starts its employer sanctions 'experiment'

[Ron Musgraves 240]

But when they got here there the indigenous people weren't handing out food stamps and free medical care. The point I am making is that what this country is comes down to the hard work and sacrifice of those who stayed here to make it what it is. Our founding fathers could have run back to England where a country was already established but instead chose to stay here and create this county that we now enjoy. Nothing contradictory about that.

Shame on us for handing out free stuff and not expecting hungry needy people to take advantage of it.

[John T 744]

People talk about the rich but no one ever defines it. How much money do you have to make before you are "rich"? The top one percent you talk about pays 39% of all the taxes. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of the tax burden. Now some people may want to bash these people but since they are paying such a disproportional share of our tax burden I believe I will let them off the hook. It makes no sense to me to bash someone who is being productive enough to subsidize the remaining 75% of the income earners leaving them with just 14% of the burden to pay.

Edward

either your misread or your misspoken. Leona Helmsly who was married to the owner of a huge NY City Real estate company who also owned the Empire State Building let the cat out of the bag by saying only the little people pay the taxes. She was right on but being the ***** that she was she gets her butt kicked into jail.

The rich have so many tax shelters your head would spin. They also don't pay the same proportionate of the penalty and fines that the middle class do. Case in point is Michael Milken who was the Junk Bond King and who stole around 4 billion from many senior citizens retirements. His fine was around 500,000,000 or maybe even less at a 100,000,000. Either way he stole Billions and only did a couple of years at a country club resort.

I deal with the reach and they brag how they know how to move there Millions by either taking Tax write offs or investing back into theres and other companies to avoid paying the tax man.

You are being snowballed in thinking that the rich are paying most of the taxes. The middle class alone by far is paying most of the taxes. And to be clear hear I'm talking about the rich and powerful and not the typical Millionaire. Where talking Multi Multi Millionaires. Where talking about people Like John Kerry who didn't want his wife;s taxes be exposed because she hardly paid her fair share. Where talking the shock Jock Howard Stern who was one time going to run for the NY governor position which he was immediately silenced when he was told he would have to show his tax statements if he wanted to keep running which he immediately refused to do and his political run came to an end that day.

Its the Middle class which is forever getting there chained chocked around. Where the ones getting screwed. When I was a NYPD it was a given to know that if you write a middle class person a ticket they were going to most likely pay it and in turn it raised more Revenue for the city where the poor would most likely not pay it and the rich would not only not pay it they would send in there high power attorneys to waste more city time so they actually cost the city money.

IMHO Ed you have it wrong.

[Edward 14]

Shame on us for handing out free stuff and not expecting hungry needy people to take advantage of it.

Exactly!

Shame on us for creating a class of government dependent people. As long as you can get it for free here why fix the problems back home in your own country.

Ron how many people starve to death each year in Latin American countries? You make it sound like if we don't feed them they will starve to death in a month. I believe that to be an exaggeration of the conditions these people face in order to gain sympathy for your position. When I checked the stats on hunger in South America they came out moderately low or extremely low. The world hunger problem: Countries affected by hunger

I wonder what the hunger rating for our founding fathers would have been while they struggled to fix the problems facing this country? Again who will solve the problems in south America if their hard working people leave? I think we are doing those countries a disservice by depleting these countries of hard working people that could make a difference back home.

Edward

[Edward 14]

You are being snowballed in thinking that the rich are paying most of the taxes. The middle class alone by far is paying most of the taxes. And to be clear hear I'm talking about the rich and powerful and not the typical Millionaire. Where talking Multi Multi Millionaires. Where talking about people Like John Kerry who didn't want his wife;s taxes be exposed because she hardly paid her fair share. Where talking the shock Jock Howard Stern who was one time going to run for the NY governor position which he was immediately silenced when he was told he would have to show his tax statements if he wanted to keep running which he immediately refused to do and his political run came to an end that day.

Its the Middle class which is forever getting there chained chocked around. Where the ones getting screwed. When I was a NYPD it was a given to know that if you write a middle class person a ticket they were going to most likely pay it and in turn it raised more Revenue for the city where the poor would most likely not pay it and the rich would not only not pay it they would send in there high power attorneys to waste more city time so they actually cost the city money.

IMHO Ed you have it wrong.

I don't play the politics of envy and it isn't us against them. The stats I cited came from the IRS and just like your account book at the end of the year numbers don't lie.

Follow the link to the IRS. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls

I believe some political party has been feeding you a line. Now ask yourself why would a political party misrepresent the truth? Political gain and the acquisition of power perhaps?

Edward

[John T 744]

I believe some political party has been feeding you a line. Now ask yourself why would a political party misrepresent the truth? Political gain and the acquisition of power perhaps?

Edward------------------------------------------------------

Ed thats right. Both major parties lines operate like that. I tend to vote Party lines at times because it takes a "Party" to get what you want done. I also have strayed from that and voted seperately. I know Political people as alot do and I understand why they do what they do but alot of times I can get disgusted by it all. I guess you have to be a special breed of person to play the political game. Which is you have to tell people what they want to hear whether its true or not...

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Exactly!

Shame on us for creating a class of government dependent people. As long as you can get it for free here why fix the problems back home in your own country.

Ron how many people starve to death each year in Latin American countries? You make it sound like if we don't feed them they will starve to death in a month. I believe that to be an exaggeration of the conditions these people face in order to gain sympathy for your position. When I checked the stats on hunger in South America they came out moderately low or extremely low. The world hunger problem: Countries affected by hunger

I wonder what the hunger rating for our founding fathers would have been while they struggled to fix the problems facing this country? Again who will solve the problems in south America if their hard working people leave? I think we are doing those countries a disservice by depleting these countries of hard working people that could make a difference back home.

Edward

I was talking about american Babies or mexican nationals. Who do you thinks gettting the benis?

Ed, I hate to tell your missing this. Like most

[Edward 14]

I was talking about american Babies or mexican nationals. Who do you thinks gettting the benis?

Ed, I hate to tell your missing this. Like most

Ron

I know this may seem harsh but in this country poverty is a self induced condition. My father raised a family with five children on a 6th grade education. We didn't ask for any assistance from the government and we didn't miss any meals. I get so tired of this we got to help them mentality. No we don't have to help them we need to make them help their self. This dependence of the government mentality is diametrically apposed to what our founding fathers created.

Edward

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Ed, I see theres no winning this one.

I'll say help the children with food money and anything we can give them.

Cant change my mind on this one.

people looking for a better life is not a crime.

[John T 744]

Ed, I see theres no winning this one.

I'll say help the children with food money and anything we can give them.

Cant change my mind on this one.

people looking for a better life is not a crime.

I'm with you Ron on the above point..Other countries leave this kids to starve and have to sell themselves for *** for them to survive. Not here not ever. Ed is missing the point or he is just not getting it.

[HotShot 34]

Ron

I know this may seem harsh but in this country poverty is a self induced condition. My father raised a family with five children on a 6th grade education. We didn't ask for any assistance from the government and we didn't miss any meals. I get so tired of this we got to help them mentality. No we don't have to help them we need to make them help their self. This dependence of the government mentality is diametrically apposed to what our founding fathers created.

Edward

That's beautiful dude...great post.

Nobody is looking to starve any kids, not even us big bad conservatives. All we're saying is follow the rules to come to our country. Yes, it is the best country in the world! Yes, I would be trying to get here if I was from another country as well! I think YOU guys are missing our point as much as we're missing your point....there is a legal way to enter our country, do it. We welcome you with open arms. You break the laws, then you deserve the punishment that goes along with it.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

there is a legal way to enter our country, do it.

that where you missed it.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I'm with you Ron on the above point..Other countries leave this kids to starve and have to sell themselves for *** for them to survive. Not here not ever. Ed is missing the point or he is just not getting it.

those people are giving birth to americans

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

those people are giving birth to americans

...that and they are giving birth to human beings.

Beth

[Jeff 232]

...that and they are giving birth to human beings.

Beth

Let them give birth to them in Mexico.....Did I say that? Why dont they revolt and make Mexico better? hell they are getting tons of our factories and other businesses down there, let them stand up and better their lives, better their wages, better their standard of living, BETTER THEIR COUNTRY!!

we dont have enough money, programs to help Americans in trouble or in poverty, the schools are screwed up, people losing jobs left & right etc etc etc, when are we going to take care of our own before we worry about letting millions of illegals in, which will lead to millions more coming in this way. When is enough enough?

We have 47 million with out health care, I know people who cant afford medicines or puts a major strain on their budget, who are barely making it, elderly & younger who worked hard all their lives, forget about the real poor, these are our grandparents, neighbors family & freinds that are hurting. The billions $ Trillions of dollars that we spend on illegals, whether its trying to stop them from coming in, or giving them health care or putting them in prison whatever

I would like to help all the mexicans, I really would, but not at the expense of hurting us or costing us trillions, that we as a country do not have

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Jeff,

Are you assuming that all Hispanics are Mexican? Because the people here that we are discussing come from many countries, not just Mexico.

Sorry - it's a pet peeve of mine....they are Hispanics (or Latinos), not Mexicans. Why do so many people refer to them like they all come from one place? They don't. We are talking about all of the Spanish speaking countries.

Beth

[Jeff 232]

Let me tell you about a beautiful little girl around here. Her name is Ivory, very pretty little thing, she is my nieces best Friend at school. Ivory is the oldest of 4 children, Ivory is 7 yrs old. Her mother and father both worked and they had a trailer home. Well about 1 year ago her father died in an accident. The mother and children were barely making it, but mother worked a couple jobs and her parents are helping as much as they can.

Well about 4 months ago, Ivory was playing outside and she got on a neighbors little go cart, there was adults around, well poor Ivory shouldn't have been driving that go cart, she drove the damn thing right into and partially under the trailer home and almost ripped her head off. It was horrible I hear. Ivory was near death and they transfered her to MUSC, its a great hospital. Ivory has tubes in her, she cant walk and several other things are messed up

My sister in law has been organizing help for the family, she's been going to Charleston MUSC to stay with Ivory on weekends so the mother can get back up here to her other children. She has gotten them some help people donating, some not tons. enough to move the family into a little bigger apartment, we have donated , clothes, bed and many more people have tried to do what they can. My sister in law I give her credit for all she is trying to do.

Well Ivory got some good news a few weeks ago, there was a rehab hospital that said they could get her walking again and help her out, everybody was happy for her & her family. About a week after the good news came the bad news. The hospital cant take her because they don't have the proper/very little medical coverage. I'm not sure of the specifics, but they aren't taking her and it would of helped this little girl definitely. THIS IS DISGUSTING. So Ivory was still sitting in the hospital and the hospital started traing the mother how to take care of Ivory AT HOME, because no where would or could take her. They say if she gets the therapy she will recover. UNREAL!!

So now the girl still sits in the hospital as of last week. WHY? because there isn't money or a program that can help this little girl. Some place like the shiners or a group like that are now suppose to be helping her. Its some kind of rehab place in PA, that what I heard about a couple weeks ago, but she's still in MUSC

Here is someone, yes an American that needs help and all I have to say is if we weren't spending trillions on the immigration problem, maybe Ivory could have already been getting the therapy she needs

Sorry for the long story, but we cant even help our own and I know we/ many want to help all people no matter what part of the world they are from, but we just cant

[Jeff 232]

Jeff,

Are you assuming that all Hispanics are Mexican? Because the people here that we are discussing come from many countries, not just Mexico.

Sorry - it's a pet peeve of mine....they are Hispanics (or Latinos), not Mexicans. Why do so many people refer to them like they all come from one place? They don't. We are talking about all of the Spanish speaking countries.

Beth

true I do say mexicans a lot, the few I personally know are mexican, but yes there is a mix of all countries

You know I am sounding like a bit of a racist on some of my responses. so Im going to back out of this conversation. I really do feel for all people of this world in need and wish we could help everyone. Maybe some day

[Edward 14]

Ed, I see theres no winning this one.

I'll say help the children with food money and anything we can give them.

Cant change my mind on this one.

people looking for a better life is not a crime.

Ron and John

Hey guys I am looking for a better life too. The difference is that I realize that if I want a better life it is my responsibility to create it. I agree that we should help people and the way to do that is to require that they help their self. Exempting people from our laws is not the way to help anyone.

Edward

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I do agree there is a huge immigration problem here. But I don't think rounding everyone up and sending them back across the border is exactly the right answer either, especially since so many of them are not Mexicans either. That's just dumping on our neighbor. I just hope whoever is elected this fall has a plan to deal with this. It means having to work with multiple countries, not just Mexico, and getting an awful lot of paperwork dealt with.

Does anyone know why so many Hispanics don't speak much English? Care to guess? It's not a matter of being lazy, it's more a matter of being uneducated and even illiterate. Many countries need for kids to leave school at a pretty early age. They have to go to work. In some cases they have to fight. In many cases elementary school is about as good as it gets. It's kind of hard, really hard to learn to read, write and speak a second language if you didn't learn to do it to begin with in your own language too well. Last year we began offering our employment forms in Spanish as well as English and boy were we surprised at the number of applicants who still could not read well enough to fill one out. Upon further investigation and after speaking with several people who are language professionals and bilingually fluent, we learned the truth about why things are the way they are. See, it seems silly to me that we are all worried about someone taking our jobs - when we can read, write and speak our own native tongue. Sometimes I think Americans are simply afraid to learn a second language. Why, I don't know....

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Illegal immigrants not US health care burden -study | Reuters

National Council of La Raza: Publications: Spanish Literacy Tutoring Impact on Students

Fewer Illegal Immigrants Enter United States in Fiscal 2007 - HispanicBusiness.com

Hispanics: Illegal immigrants help U.S. - UPI.com

Illegal immigrants moving out - USATODAY.com

A little light reading...

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Oklahoma law blamed for Hispanic exodus - Race & ethnicity - MSNBC.com

This is sad.

Beth

[northwestern 14]

Oklahoma law blamed for Hispanic exodus - Race & ethnicity - MSNBC.com

This is sad.

Beth

What's sad? That mexican nationals cross AMERICAN borders to take over MY country? That is so sad that the press has to use children as pawns in their games. The mexican nationals knowingly crossed that border and spread thier seed knowing full and well it was illegal, but knew they'd get the benefits. I personally think it should be considered an act of war, millions of mexican nationals flying the mexican flag cross AMERICAN borders and nothing is done about it. I applaud Oklahoma because there are plenty of jobs that AMERICAN nationals will be able to get, AMERICAN nationals will get the health care, AMERICAN nationals will get a good education. This issue is bad where I live, I've always been able to get a part-time/full time job for the winter, but this winter I've gotten none. I've probably applied to over 50 places with 3 responses and of those I was in a list of 60 or more wanting the same job. Even factories are starting out at minimum wage, why? because foriegn illigals are crossing the border and taking those jobs and are content with the wages. They don't mind 3 families living in a doublewide and making frequent trips to the emergency room or exhausting community services meant for AMERICANS! I love life, but honestly, like every stinking foriegn national has a little baby that's about to die. give me a break!

[HotShot 34]

Yes, that is very sad. It's sad that the parents were STUPID enough to not take their little baby to a hospital at the risk of being deported or not. I would die for either of my kids, who cares about being deported? They should feel like such pieces of excrement for putting themselves in such a position. It is truly sad.

[Scott Stone 604]

Did you all notice how I managed to stay out of this conversation? Did you all know that my wifes maiden name is Castillo? Did you all know that I only employed one hispanic worker until last week when he managed to get fired? (Beth knows that story, and it is actually kind of funny and very well deserved)

That being said, I am absolutely opposed to illegal immigration. I tried using Hispanic workers, mostly Mexicans, and they just did not work out for me. They could not have a drivers license here, so that they could not legally drive. The language barrier was untenable, and they would quite often totally rip me off in performing their assigned jobs for the day. (did you know that it can take up to 3 hours to drive two miles to a job?) I do not employ anyone of questionable legal status anymore. As much as I would like to, I do not think that there is anyway feasible way that they can be returned home to their native countries. It would be horrendously expensive, and would take decades. What we could do is make it increasingly difficult to send their money home, etc.

So, if I was president here is what I would do, and mind you, I am thinking of this on the fly and it is not perfectly thought out.

1. Any money sent to a foreign nation by a Non US citizen, including foreign corporations would be taxed at a 50% tax rate. Anyone caught sending the money and not collecting the tax would have to pay the tax on all money, whether it was previously taxed or not, at a rate of 25%. For collecting the tax, the company would be able to keep 10% of any taxes they collect to cover their expenses.

2. Anyone that is caught working or employing people with forged documentation would go to prison for 6 months of each violation. If they are a foreign national, they would be returned to their home country. If they are caught again, it is their second violation and would require a 12 month sentence, 3rd violation an 18 month sentence.

3. Any medical care that they seek would be paid for by the federal government, and deducted from any assistance that the US federal government gives to their native country. If no assistance is given to their native country, then it is deducted from any trade that they conduct.

4. Any Foreign national would be required to have a drivers license to drive and would be returned home at their own expense if caught without a US drivers license.

5. They would be required, within 5 years, to purchase a home on american soil. This way they would have a vested interest in the American Dream.

6. Any employer that is caught not collecting taxes on Foreign nationals would have a complete audit on their books, and have to pay 20% on any income taxes not paid.

7. Any foreign national would be able to keep whatever money they have paid into social security and have it paid out to them upon retirement, no earlier than the statutory time, until they run out of money.

8. They must have basic english skills within 2 years of arrival or start of their first employment. It can be done without an education.

But we would otherwise welcome them with open arms...

[mbryan 48]