Lifetime Wood Sealant

[jbruno 14]

I am bidding a condo complex and they would like me to use 'Lifetime Wood Sealent" ( as per the bid sheet, which is poorly written at best). Anybody have any experience with this stuff? only thing I found on the internet was that it seesm to cover wood/ concrete/ and masonary... silicone rubber??

Also in the bid sheet , it says I should use 180 degree water at 2,000-2,000 psi at a minumum of 6 inches from the wood... And this is from an ENGINEER... it's unreal what you deal with when people have no idea about power washing... Not 1 mention of 'soaps' in order to clean the mold and mildew. But I may use the hot water to my advantage because the guy I'm bidding against doesn't have ahot water machine!! LOL

[plainpainter 217]

I would do it exactly as stated on the contract - with an additional signature on a waiver form that states they are dictating the exact process and hold your harmless to any consequences from following their exact specs.

F' them - give 'em a lousy job and a lousy product just exactly like they want. This is '09 - get the work!

[big mike 14]

F' them - give 'em a lousy job and a lousy product just exactly like they want. This is '09 - get the work!

Dan I think that's poor advice. Sounds like someone saw one of those guys at a home show with the "never seal your deck again" claims, and bought the sales pitch hook, line, and sinker. Tell them they are going to get a poor result with the current spec sheet, and kindly decline the work. Your reputation is at stake if you do lousy work.

[Tom DeFrancesco 23]

Who are you bidding against????? Glad to see your alive too.

[plainpainter 217]

Dan I think that's poor advice. Sounds like someone saw one of those guys at a home show with the "never seal your deck again" claims, and bought the sales pitch hook, line, and sinker. Tell them they are going to get a poor result with the current spec sheet, and kindly decline the work. Your reputation is at stake if you do lousy work.

Ordinarily I'd think you were right, especially for homeowners. But this is a condo association - that's a whole different beast. I've got a guy around me that is a painter that takes on deck work for condo associations - and he toots his horn about his high quality work. The work is subpar by anyone's standards that comes to these boards - but the condo associations love him.

If you follow those specs - I agree you are putting the nail in your own coffin in terms of residential services. But for a condo association - I'd say get a waiver with a quick explanation that you don't agree it's the right course of action - but you'd still glady do the work to their specs - as long as they assume any and all culpability as a result from following those specs.

And there you go - you are free and clear of any responsibility - they're happy because you are willing to follow their exact spec. And they're going to get a lousy job that will need to recoated sooner than later - and they'll contact you to do it again. How is that so, you may ask.

It's like I had a friend working in the stock market taking care of customer accounts. Say he bought was a sound investment in an unknown stock - he'd get callbacks and angry comments - especially if the stock didn't play out perfectly right away. But when he would choose 'namebrand' stocks that he knew beyond a shadow a doubt would not perform well at all - when it would go down. Folks wouldn't blame him -they'd blame the company - and never hold him culpable, and say - 'yeah, IBM is down, what can you do'

You understand? Homeowners totally different breed altogether - they will never take any responsibility on their own shoulders - if they force you to apply 'their' products and perform the job the way they want it - and it doesn't come out good - then they hold you responsible for their actions. So it's up to you as a contractor and educate them as to what you will and won't back up. And walk if they won't agree to your terms.

[RPetry 564]

And there you go - you are free and clear of any responsibility -

Pure nonsense. You did the job, no one knows the consulting engineer, and you are left holding the bag. Who do you think they are going to call?

A reputation in any trade is hard gained and worth more than a quick buck.

[big mike 14]

Dan,

I work for a bunch of associations, and what you're missing is the fact that these board of directors are made up of residents, not some parent company. If you do crappy work, the word gets out. Yes, someone made a spec sheet, but that doesn't make it right. I wouldn't risk a hard fought reputation to pocket a few dollars on a condo association. I would go in a year or two later and get the work after a sub-standard job was performed. EZ job to secure. Just let someone else do the WRONG thing, and come back next year and do it right. Makes you a hero.

[James 625]

This could be an opportunity to educate the Board if you really want the job. Condo boards can be difficult to deal with and someone with an idea is even more dangerous. Do a test spot first to prove that 180 degrees is incorrect at 2000 psi and it is PULP FICTION! Or ask to see a job that was done with those specs ?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Let me put it this way:

You are the professional and responsible for the work regardless of the specified guidelines. You obviously know better so a coming to Jesus would be in order before you do any work.

As far as the "lifetime sealer", is that the name or the supposed expectancy?

We as a rule do not recommend anything that will become a nightmare to maintain or replace. All too much has our experience brought us across a mega sealer that promises the impossible. Unless all 6 sides of the board are completely sealed, it will eventually fail.

Take the reigns here and do some fact finding before you take this on. If this project has some kind of warranty attached to it, you could be liable for any failures during that warranty period just because you were the installer. see what we mean?

Rod!~

[jnoden 15]

I can understand wanting to pull in a big job and needing to be flexible to meet hoa requirements but hot water, no chems and a sealer like that? I would educate your contact person, give him literature that states the opposite and you can even direct him to threads from these forums. I have done this before and it has worked to change their minds and hire me. I would politely reject the job if he insisted on you doing any of those three things and let him know that you can not compromise your professionalism. Good Luck.

[sthom21 14]

I am not the most experienced contractor on this board, but, I do have extensive experience writing bids for a variety of work. If you disagree with the process and the way the bid is written, take the time to call the person in charge and ask for a meeting at the site of the work. Ask them to explain the short term and the long term goals of the project. Then explain the reasons that their bid will not yield the results they are looking for. Let them know that you can tell them the right way to do the job if they are interested in listening. Let them know you would like to bid the job, buit as it is written you will not risk your companies reputation by bidding the job, because it will not come out as they expect it to. Have good reasons and data to back up any claims you make. Be respectful and courteous and you will probably see a revision that specs the job in a manner you can live with. You may even be able to spec the job for them. I rewrote specs several times when reputable contractors explained why they were withdrawing from the bid process.

Just don't leave them feeling like a moron. I have had to write bids for jobs I had no idea how to accomplish. It was the contractors who helped me modify the RFQ that made the final cut in the bid process.

Good Luck.

[Adrian 155]

I may have missed the name of the sealer in my reading. Is there truely a seal or stain that last' a lifetime? Wouldn't that justify us as woodies raising our rates and using the said product?

I know the main topic of thread is HOA's requirements and their way of wood resto.

It just seems to me a pretty gutsy statement on the MFG's part to claim their product last' a lifetime.

I'll stick w/RS. I like seeing my customers every couple of yrs.

[Tonyg 14]

I may have missed the name of the sealer in my reading. Is there truely a seal or stain that last' a lifetime? Wouldn't that justify us as woodies raising our rates and using the said product?

I know the main topic of thread is HOA's requirements and their way of wood resto.

It just seems to me a pretty gutsy statement on the MFG's part to claim their product last' a lifetime.

I'll stick w/RS. I like seeing my customers every couple of yrs.

It sounds as though they are talking about a petrifying sealer.

Cretowood 5 Gallon

[acegot 14]

That is the name of the product. Here is yahoo search result. I talked to a guy who used it as per instructions & said it works well. Stains hold color longer, keeps from drying out so fast. Sounds good if it works. I dont know about standing behind it though.

1. Lifetime™ Waterproofing Sealant | Application Instructions
   ... the penetration and waterproofing effect of Lifetime™ Sealant. b. WOOD AGE: When Lifetime™ Sealant is applied to wood, the wood must be properly seasoned. ...
   www.coatingsinternational.com/products/lifetime/liapp.shtml - Cached
   

Edited March 7, 2009 by acegot

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Our VOC laws would not allow us to use it. It is 70% Naptha (mineral spirits) which puts it over the limit here.

Other than that, I am still skeptical. It is meant as a bonding agent for wood or masonry applications and can be mixed with compatible paints and stains.

They go another step further to say that it is an "air curing" product. So once you pop the pail, the clock is ticking. They have a disclaimer that states:

Also, please remember Lifetime™ is an 'air cure' product (high humidity = faster cure), and therefore, once the can is opened the curing process begins. Lifetime™ Sealant Products, Inc.; it's manufacturers; or agents are not responsible for replacement of jelled product resulting from air exposure over any period of time.

This simply means that if you do not use the entire contents before it cures, you have product waste to contend with since one cannot remove the air from the container. I suppose there might be other methods available but it adds a p.i.t.a. factor (Pain In The Anterior) to contend with.

Since they also say this product can be mixed with other 'compatible' products, they have a disclaimer for failures resulting from those combination's too.

It requires a minimum of 2 days dry time before application and a couple of days to cure after application. That puts it in an unlikely column for us. During our seasons, we have rain every 2nd-3rd days on avg in spring and summer is around every 3rd-4th day. Not a big enough window for this products specifications.

While this product may be good for some applications, our company could not form any durable business model around it.

Rod!~

[Littlefield 65]

I agree with Mr. Thomson. A miswritten spec is nothing less than a golden opportunity! I live for these, because it lets me show how I'm different, and eliminate competition from the bid process, thereby cementing my price as the only "qualified" contractor.

Basic sales strategy 101 is not to always sell apples to apples, but to differentiate!!

Follow Scotts advice to the letter. Be well prepared. In order to secure the meeting, you may have to ask questions of the gatekeeper that you know they will not know the answer to. IE Due to the furring of the wood because of the high pressure, what grit and type of sandpaper are you speccing for the sanding phase? I've noticed there is not a spec requiring sanding, does this mean you are requiring all other contractors to seal over the wood fuzz? What does the mfg of the stain say as to the application over furred wood and their warranty, are you aware that many other stains would consider this grounds for dismissal of a warranty failure claim? Let's get together and talk about an industry recognized standard to remove the old stain gently, avoid sanding, and make sure we get you a warrantable job.

BTW, YOU are going to warranty the job, not the stain co. If it fails, they will always find a way to blame the applicator, not the stain. So, you may well want to work out a warranty/maintenance package like I have that mandates annual cleaning and touchup as part of the 5 year warranty.

Figure up your real cost to lightly wash and restain the horizontals every year, it should be quite a bit less than the initial strip/stain. If some of the houses are on the north side, or are otherwise protected, you probably can stain them every other time, make sure thats in the proposal. Submit all this together with your initial proposal, and get them to commit to the whole thing up front, if possible.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

In 2010 ALL states in the US will be required to adhere to the same VOC laws. If they install this now, they will not be able to use the same formula product to maintain it in the future. Many of us have already been through reformulation hell here on the east coast, seeing less performance from all oils that once lasted longer.

Beth

[MudDuck 20]

Good point Beth,,,I see it as a good opportunity as well,,to show them that you know what your talking about but like someone else said don't make them feel like a moron. But if you explain the whats' and whys' you may impress the right person and you'll be the pro they call for everything. Good opportunity but I would not do the job as written and tell them so and why. Tell them you would be glad to do it but your not going to destroy the wood doing it the way it's written...Sad thing is they probably paid some engineer (in the neighborhood) more to make that plan than they plan on paying you....

[jbruno 14]

Wow, I'm glad I invoked such a discussion.. AND THANK YOU to everyone (except TOM D!!! LOL)

Here's the update, I'm going to hand in the bid sheet w/ MY SPECS i.e. Ready Seal (flooring) and Ben Moore (spindles)... Cold water cleaning with roof magic and or timber strip/ oxalic. I will also hand in litetrature staitng that Hot Water and 2,000psi Isn't the recommended way to clean wood... I will also provide copies of MSDS for all chems to be used, and then let them decide if the engineer has the "association" in it's best interest, or if he's just collecting a fee from morons???

The only Problem am running into is the engineer is from Philly (where the property management company is from) I will also question the VOC compliance of that Lifetime Wood Sealant, which me and my painter don't want to use because it's unfamiliar to us.

So here's my next question... Who (on-line and a 'credible' source) has this anti-hot water/ high pressure literature... I know what I was taught, but I don't think I've ever seen a Manufacturer write down specs for cleaning wood????

[jbruno 14]

Wow, I'm glad I invoked such a discussion.. AND THANK YOU to everyone (except TOM D!!! LOL)

Here's the update, I'm going to hand in the bid sheet w/ MY SPECS i.e. Ready Seal (flooring) and Ben Moore (spindles)... Cold water cleaning with roof magic and or timber strip/ oxalic. I will also hand in litetrature staitng that Hot Water and 2,000psi Isn't the recommended way to clean wood... I will also provide copies of MSDS for all chems to be used, and then let them decide if the engineer has the "association" in it's best interest, or if he's just collecting a fee from morons???

The only Problem am running into is the engineer is from Philly (where the property management company is from) I will also question the VOC compliance of that Lifetime Wood Sealant, which me and my painter don't want to use because it's unfamiliar to us.

So here's my next question... Who (on-line and a 'credible' source) has this anti-hot water/ high pressure literature... I know what I was taught, but I don't think I've ever seen a Manufacturer write down specs for cleaning wood????

P.S. I will never do **** work... No matter what the spec sheet says, I was just going to wash the correct way if I win the bid, but attaching a rider culpabilty clause is a great idea

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

You don't need a source for the anti-hot water with high pressure on wood. It is common knowledge that if hot water is used on wood it will; (pro's and cons)

-Raise the grain

-Remove the early wood

-Splinter it leaving it rough and fuzzy

+Perhaps kill the majority of the mold/algae if you get 180* at the nozzle

+Dry quicker

-Require extensive sanding to create a smooth surface and alleviate the splintering

(this will require another wash to get rid of the debris in any cracks and between the boards)

-Does not kill the spores

-Does not remove or diminish tannin stains. Tannin is water soluble but once it is one the surface and exposed to air, it becomes a stain impregnating the wood. Only an acid can remove it other than sanding.

Most people will not pay for all the extra especially if the deck is in good condition to begin with. Many would think you are out of your mind to do that to their deck just to install a product on it.

Sarcastically but not off the point: "Yes Sir/Ma'am, I need to destroy your deck and then fix it before I can install this great product which will last a lifetime" I'd be afraid of getting escorted out of their by my britches!

The engineer while having the best of intentions has neglected to thoroughly understand the care required for a wooden substrate.

Rod!~

[Littlefield 65]

You don't need a source for the anti-hot water with high pressure on wood. It is common knowledge that if hot water is used on wood it will; (pro's and cons)

No disrespect, Rod, but he does need a source. Claiming its common knowledge to someone who doesn't know it infers they are stupid. Third party standards are great sales tools, and its something the PWNA should have available for use by members.

If they don't have it, the PDCA website may have something in their standards, but I doubt it.

I'm sure there are some making progress on standards for wood care, and this is exactly the reason it would make sense, lots of wood in the US that needs to be washed correctly according to standards, and it would be great to go in and reference a wood care standard to back up your own opinion.

One last thought, go in and do one deck this way as a test demo, after they are convinced, fix that one and do the rest right.

[jbruno 14]

You don't need a source for the anti-hot water with high pressure on wood. It is common knowledge that if hot water is used on wood it will; (pro's and cons)

No disrespect, Rod, but he does need a source. Claiming its common knowledge to someone who doesn't know it infers they are stupid. Third party standards are great sales tools, and its something the PWNA should have available for use by members.

If they don't have it, the PDCA website may have something in their standards, but I doubt it.

I'm sure there are some making progress on standards for wood care, and this is exactly the reason it would make sense, lots of wood in the US that needs to be washed correctly according to standards, and it would be great to go in and reference a wood care standard to back up your own opinion.

One last thought, go in and do one deck this way as a test demo, after they are convinced, fix that one and do the rest right.

I agree RICH... If I walk in with literature from a credible source then the HOA can figure out how they want to aproach it. Benjamin moore and those companies have "LITERATURE" that helps sell their product, why not us... and yes 99% of the guys and gals on this board are credible to ME, but HOA groups may not take this thread as a 'source'!!!!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

I agree RICH... If I walk in with literature from a credible source then the HOA can figure out how they want to aproach it. Benjamin moore and those companies have "LITERATURE" that helps sell their product, why not us... and yes 99% of the guys and gals on this board are credible to ME, but HOA groups may not take this thread as a 'source'!!!!

It's in the PWNA coursework for those who are wood certified. One of PWNA's sources is Forest Labs. I have been in that class, so I can say with certainty that yes, there is a non-profit org that offers certification in Wood Restoration and Preservation that specifically teaches NOT using hot water on wood, and why.

Beth

[jbruno 14]

It's in the PWNA coursework for those who are wood certified. One of PWNA's sources is Forest Labs. I have been in that class, so I can say with certainty that yes, there is a non-profit org that offers certification in Wood Restoration and Preservation that specifically teaches NOT using hot water on wood, and why.

Beth

And that's what I needed! Thank you

[Tonyg 14]

How about an official statement from the UMMAC? Shoot someone on the transition team an email and have them fax something on letterhead with some sort of recomendation from an official trade organization.