AC super cedar

[bigchaz 157]

Can't attach a picture from my phone but the super cedar deck I just finished took 6 gallons on a 14*12...the fuzzies are bright yellow, floor is almost black, rails looks unstained even with 2 coats...looks nothing even close in color to cedar semi.

Am I missing something here? Wood was 3 yrs old never stained. Ill come back tomorrow to see it again but its already pretty dry and I'm thinking this is gonna need to be stripped and redone.

is there a different balance of oils in the super cedar than the semis? It drinks like a timber oil and handles nothing at all like the semi-trans.

Anyone have experiance with the super cedar?

[plainpainter 217]

I don't know much about Cedar, Charlie, but from what I've seen - unless you sand that stuff like a mother F'er to the point where it looks like you sent the boards through a planer - you will get strange results. I've seen the 'black' as well on certain areas of the grain even with woodtux right after application.

I personally don't know what other guys feel about stains - but I used A.C. Semisolid for the first time yesterday on pressure treated - and I would classify it as an extrememly thinned product - very liquidy. And perhaps cedar needs something more rambunctious like wtw? As well - the cedar colors on cedar - I don't imagine that looking good at all - I did a test spot of cedar and super cedar on mahogany - and it didn't look good on that

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Pics may say a thousand words... btw, what are you talking about in mentioning fuzzies? Are you setting us up to where we question the prep job?

I wonder what happened with using wtw (honey gold stuff) on cedar...actually you did not say the wood was cedar though. Thought that is what most back east like to use though :)

Edited July 7, 2009 by MMI Enterprises

[PressurePros 249]

I really hope Jake is reading this..

The colors and transparency levels have to be clarified.

- Super Cedar is the semi-solid right?

- The semi solid is supposed to have the most pigment and is up-charged accordingly? Correct?

- The heaviest pigmented product, the semi-solid is now labeled on the can as "transparent". Correct?

And now a contractor says they are getting 70 s/f per gallon with this, the heaviest pigmented product. Am I still on track?

Huh?

[MMI Enterprises 289]

good catches there Ken... maybe there is alot of railing, stair, and latice work?

[RPetry 564]

Can't attach a picture from my phone but the super cedar deck I just finished took 6 gallons on a 14*12...the fuzzies are bright yellow, floor is almost black, rails looks unstained even with 2 coats...looks nothing even close in color to cedar semi.

Am I missing something here? Wood was 3 yrs old never stained. Ill come back tomorrow to see it again but its already pretty dry and I'm thinking this is gonna need to be stripped and redone.

is there a different balance of oils in the super cedar than the semis? It drinks like a timber oil and handles nothing at all like the semi-trans.

Anyone have experiance with the super cedar?

Charlie,

Do not listen to Daniel. If you are working on cedar, the wood, not the stain color, do not do a hard sand unless absolutely necessary. The finish will be extremely "blotchy" if using an oil.

Attached is a pic of a small "add on" job we did with A-C super cedar. The wood is clear, high grade WRC. Cleaned with sodium percarb, brightened with citric, and one coat of stain.

[bigchaz 157]

Here is what I was able to find out after talking with Jake, who did a good job trying to explain the chemistry to my small brain.

All the super cedar is is the cedar toner with 3 times the yellow transoxide pigment. The cedar toner and super cedar have the same amount of burnt umber(sp?) which is what would normally make the stain appear more opaque.

I think they must have been trying to put super cedar under semi solid based on the volume of pigmentation in the stain. Because it uses so much more pigment that also explains why it is in the same price range. So technically speaking semi-solid makes sense, but I look at stains in terms of how solid they look to the eye. So the super cedar LOOKS no more solid than the transparent.

Edit: picture from my phone

This is in the sunlight so you don't see the black as much as you do from the other angle. The fuzzies between the boards annoy the heck out of me. I could defur them but I normally wouldn't have to do that.

Edited July 8, 2009 by bigchaz
talked to Armstrong clark some more

[acegot 14]

If after being neutralized, any black would be water damage. Young growth cedar & redwood are at times very vulnerable when not sealed with in the first year or less of exposure. The cedar semi should look similar to this on cedar.(attached pic)If the want more color than that you wouls need to use mountain cedar semi-solid. If its not what the customer is expecting, you should be able defelt as needed, comes off easy when freshly oiled, & reapply cedar semi-trans over the top, one good heavy even coat. Do a test spot first. You can call if you want for more details.

I did ajob last week where the homeowner did there deck, it looked pretty good except thay had patches of fuzzies all over. It made her crazy. I came in & defelted the whole thing, swept off the goey fuzz,& applied another wet coat, expecting to back wipe alot of it off. Came back after 2.5 hrs & it all went in except a couple of spots near house that get all shade.

[acegot 14]

By the way, your depiction of what Jake explained is correct to my knowledge. It is in the semi solid catagory based on volumne of total pigment & not type of "hiding" pigments.(opacity)

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Doesn't hide the wood at all. It's on our deck. Reminds me othe the WT look back when WT was a new product. Faboo!

Beth

[James 625]

Thats Pressure Treated wood not cedar ?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Yes. But the point is, it goes on like a semi-trans, not a semi-solid even though it has a high solids content. What some people do not realize is that your resin counts as a solid, not just your pigment. You can have a high solid content product that is not too heavily pigmented.

Beth

[RPetry 564]

... This is in the sunlight so you don't see the black as much as you do from the other angle. The fuzzies between the boards annoy the heck out of me. I could defur them but I normally wouldn't have to do that.

Charlie,

IMO, the black in the wood does not look too bad for old PT wood. Seriously doubt that it has anything to do with A-C stain.

The firring between the deck boards and some on top does not look good.

[PressurePros 249]

That is identical to the "dirty" finish of Wood Tux. The culprit is in that transoxide pigment. Its very unforgiving. To me that deck looks like crap and I don't mean just because of the prep.

[RPetry 564]

That is identical to the "dirty" finish of Wood Tux. The culprit is in that transoxide pigment. Its very unforgiving. To me that deck looks like crap and I don't mean just because of the prep.

Ken,

Are you saying that there is "bad" or "inferior" pigment affecting the look of the stain?

Or that transoxides on some wood just does not look good?

[YVPW 20]

That is identical to the "dirty" finish of Wood Tux. The culprit is in that transoxide pigment. Its very unforgiving. To me that deck looks like crap and I don't mean just because of the prep.

Ken nailed it! Charlie you should have used the cedar semi on that job and it would have looked much better.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Super Cedar does lighten when dry. Ours went from being similar to Sikkens Natural, to a nice even light gold.

I will say this....that blackening you are all talking about shows up regardless of if it is cedar or PT or whatever. I am not convinced it is the wood itself, I am not certain that trans-oxide pigment would do that either. However, I do believe it is a alkyd (or resin) residual, every deck we have seen with this problem, regardless of the finish has been an oil. You can sand it out. It will only go as deep as the penetration allows, but that is perhaps a larger task than customer might pay.

WT had linseed oil - many do. Linseed is food for mildew. It can blacken and go quite deep.

Hope this helps.

Beth

p.s. had the problem on our own deck from WT - sanded it back, applied AC Super Ceadr, and it is wonderful!!!! No more blackening.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Beth n Rod
added more

[YVPW 20]

Beth you're right it's the oil that brings it out, and the transoxide's since there more transparent don't cover it up. That's why I always used Baker's on the old decks it always made them look good as it does any deck new or old. Sanding back down to light wood would fix the wood so that you could use a transoxide finish on it, but not many customers are willing to pay the price for that.

Beth Wood Tux didn't have linseed oil in it, did it? I thought it was an alkyd. The AC has linseed oil in it.

Edited July 8, 2009 by YVPW

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

http://www.sinoma-cnmiec.cn/bookpic/200812229392559022.pdf

Interesting link!

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

They are related. Long oil linseed alkyd..... and yes, WT did.

Beth

[YVPW 20]

Yeah I knew they were related. I was thinking of linseed oil in reference to what's in AC.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Alkyds are the most popular of the drying oils, and come in a number of flavors.... the term may not be 100% interchangeable, but in many cases it is. Ask Jake.

Beth

[bigchaz 157]

Basically what Jason said about using the semi-trans is right. Ill grant that some fuzzies could stand to be eliminated but it would look nothing close to that with cedar-semi trans instead of the super cedar.

[plainpainter 217]

Charlie, don't you sand down your decks?

[YVPW 20]

I can't speak for Charlie, but most people just knock off the fuzzies with an Osborn or defelting pad. Random orbit, orbital, belt would all be in the sanding category. A true sanding of a deck is something most customers won't pay the price for. I personally use an Osborn and buff everything on a deck, they are more aggressive than a defelting pad and actually tend to give the wood somewhat of a sanded look.

[acegot 14]

Ken,

Are you saying that there is "bad" or "inferior" pigment affecting the look of the stain?

Or that transoxides on some wood just does not look good?

Thats it, When you have a lot of transoxide pig. it gives you UV protection but not much color coverage, so you have to have good natural color of the wood itself for the finished product to look acceptable.

For 3yrs old, thats the darkest PTP I've ever seen a pic of. The coloring looks more that of weathered Cedar.