AC super cedar

[bigchaz 157]

Can't attach a picture from my phone but the super cedar deck I just finished took 6 gallons on a 14*12...the fuzzies are bright yellow, floor is almost black, rails looks unstained even with 2 coats...looks nothing even close in color to cedar semi.

Am I missing something here? Wood was 3 yrs old never stained. Ill come back tomorrow to see it again but its already pretty dry and I'm thinking this is gonna need to be stripped and redone.

is there a different balance of oils in the super cedar than the semis? It drinks like a timber oil and handles nothing at all like the semi-trans.

Anyone have experiance with the super cedar?

[James 625]

Dan , I agree ! I wish you never found these boards ! LOL

If you put a coat of RS down first AC works better. I call it SCAR !

[RPetry 564]

... If you put a coat of RS down first AC works better. I call it SCAR !

Diamond Jim,

Does that stand for Second Coat As Required? We've been doing that with RS for many years.

[James 625]

It's an anagram of AC & RS !

[plainpainter 217]

Lyle - there is no 'body' to the A.C. stain - at least with woodtux I knew a substantial amount of linseed alkyds were drenching the wood. With A.C. it reminded me of heavily heavily thinned stains of 8-9 years ago. It would be more appropriate for much newer wood that you need that extra penetrating strength. But when you are dealing with 8-12 year old pressure treated - you need more substance that will fill all the voids. Don't get me wrong - I love the stuff. But me thinks if Russell perhaps backed off the 'trans' pigments a little bit with a couple of other modifications and then had a true Quality Assurance department to keep quality on an even keel - it would serve alot of usefulness.

[James 625]

Dan, just shut up! only kidding,lol ?

[acegot 14]

Lyle - there is no 'body' to the A.C. stain - at least with woodtux I knew a substantial amount of linseed alkyds were drenching the wood. With A.C. it reminded me of heavily heavily thinned stains of 8-9 years ago. It would be more appropriate for much newer wood that you need that extra penetrating strength. But when you are dealing with 8-12 year old pressure treated - you need more substance that will fill all the voids. Don't get me wrong - I love the stuff. QUOTE]

Dan, I here ya, what I'm saying is you need to believe that the linseed oil/resins that are attaching to the surface fibers are going to do their job. I've done some real old dried out redwood jobs that I just came in with the attitude that whatever I do isnt going to last, I've just thrown down a wet on wet coat and was out of there and returned in 2 yrs & was totally blown away at the positive results. ( this was with a product similar to AC) When I used to use RS the wood would suck up 2 coats & I was forever wondering if it was going to hold up, & it did ok. If I was doing old dried out PTP I would probably do a wet on wet coat of semi-solid & be done with it. Have faith & dont make yourself crazy over it.

[RPetry 564]

Charlie,

Do not listen to Daniel. If you are working on cedar, the wood, not the stain color, do not do a hard sand unless absolutely necessary. The finish will be extremely "blotchy" if using an oil. ...

As an example. The picture attached is high quality Western Red Cedar stripped of foul 1 yr. old Penofin stain. That is Penofin seen on the vertical house T&G cedar siding.

Stained with RS natural cedar, second coat, still wet. This cedar was "buffed" lightly with a RO at 60 grit. No hard sanding. Its cedar, full of natural extractives. You do not want to "heat" the wood and bring them to the surface where they will foul up your finish.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Dan just try some Omax on that thar PT if you want to see something of a coating or pore filler.

RS and AC should be thought of more as in the wood looks with AC quite frankly having the advantage of a film lock provided by the drying oils. Yes RS looks good and rich/wet when first done but that's about it. If I am gonna drench it will be with AC.

[RPetry 564]

... Yes RS looks good and rich/wet when first done but that's about it.

Kevin,

My customers, some who have been with us at the 8 year mark, would tend to disagree. So do I.

[Tonyg 14]

You do not want to "heat" the wood and bring them to the surface where they will foul up your finish.

Knots!?!?!!

Sorry, the thread seemed a mile or two away from the OP anyway

Could sanding be the culprit of my knots coming back to life after they seemed to be dormant for so long? The Heat activating the extractives or sap causing them to come out of the knots?

Edited July 10, 2009 by Tonyg

[acegot 14]

Tony, I wouldnt think so, there really isnt much in the way of extractives or sap in or near the knots. Around the hard knots is that area of drier wood that just sucks up sealer, till you get into the "normal" wood.

[RPetry 564]

Knots!?!?!!

Sorry, the thread seemed a mile or two away from the OP anyway

Could sanding be the culprit of my knots coming back to life after they seemed to be dormant for so long? The Heat activating the extractives or sap causing them to come out of the knots?

Tony,

I have noticed sap being liberated to the surface on older, PT SYP, not WRC. This seems to happen sporadically, maybe 20% of the time, after a very strong, deep cleaning of poorly maintained wood.

This "white stuff" can appear around knots but also in streaks within the grain. Often, it does not show up until a week or more after working on the wood. Usually, it is only in a few spots of the total deck.

Edited July 10, 2009 by RPetry
spelling error

[James 625]

You can add boiled linseed to RS to make it have a little more holding power at the surface. I have a couple of decks at the 3 years point doing very well. They are right next to the very first version of Woodrich.My formula my idea ! Which is also doing well. I am going to a very old PT deck today that I add paint pigment to the oil for more hiding power at the surface. Yesterday was RS LB topped with AC toner.

I'll have the combo meal, Please!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Tony,

I have noticed sap being liberated to the surface on older, PT SYP, not WRC. This seems to happen sporadically, maybe 20% of the time, after a very strong, deep cleaning of poorly maintained wood.

This "white stuff" can appear around knots but also in steaks within the grain. Often, it does not show up until a week or more after working on the wood. Usually, it is only in a few spots of the total deck.

What he said.... :sunshine: But I'll add that sap will run from newer wood (PT) when newly washed as well. Have also seen it on cedar but it doesn't show as often....when the lumber is milled also plays into it.

Beth :cup: :cup:

[PressurePros 249]

I've noticed the sap when using deeper penetrating stains.

Dan, I disagree that applying a second coat is not necessary. If the wood can take it, it should be done. I've found the old painter's rule of two lighter coats are better than one heavy coat applies to sealing as well. Once you get a system down it is not that labor intensive. It takes about 5 minutes to spray down a good sized deck floor. Our system is to do that first. That could sit for an hour while we do everything else. The finish coat on a floor goes down by truck brush as a medium/heavy coat. This is just my opinion but not only does the floor look more "complete", but the deck has the ultimate in protection from surface to as deep as the oil can penetrate.

[bigchaz 157]

Do you walk all over that first light coat when you do the rest of the deck?

[acegot 14]

I've noticed the sap when using deeper penetrating stains.

Dan, I disagree that applying a second coat is not necessary. If the wood can take it, it should be done. I've found the old painter's rule of two lighter coats are better than one heavy coat applies to sealing as well. Once you get a system down it is not that labor intensive. It takes about 5 minutes to spray down a good sized deck floor. Our system is to do that first. That could sit for an hour while we do everything else. The finish coat on a floor goes down by truck brush as a medium/heavy coat. This is just my opinion but not only does the floor look more "complete", but the deck has the ultimate in protection from surface to as deep as the oil can penetrate.

Application techniqes play alot in the factor also, there is a balance of how everyone interpits what we all desribe as our methods & # of coats.

I will do as you do on some decks, (spray then brush) for the most part I put a heavy wet coat & back brush once or twice,(drier wood twice) there is average about 15 minutes between each backbrush, and as you know a truck brush holds a lot of material, so each of my backbrushes is like adding another light coat each time. I like your method, a little faster, I dont spray much here cause its always so breezy/windy. (except for ralings) I havent seen any differences in dept of color or overall appearance when I use either method. Armstong is a great product for this method. Is it ac that you are describing your better appearance with the 2 coat, or your unknown secret sauce or both. Everybody have a great day!

[PressurePros 249]

Do you walk all over that first light coat when you do the rest of the deck?

Yes, Charlie. This technique was passed on to me from the infamous Shane "Seymore" Bresseaux.

[PressurePros 249]

Lyle, that is with everything. The other product I use mandates it is heavy on mineral spirits and dives quickly. With the A/C, it depends on the deck but in a couple circumstances we did one coat and when I went back to check it, the color was light.

Here is a picture I found. Customer was replacing the front patio deck before selling. So when we stained, the steps and back deck were given two coats. We did not stain the piece being replaced. A week later customer called to let us know that they ran out of money, couldn't replace the wood and that they wanted it stained after all. On to of that they were having an open house and it needed to be dried and cured within 48 hrs. Told them we would one coat it to solve their dilemma. You can see the noticeable difference in tone and continuity.

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Ken, Unsure what we to gain from that pic as we know not what it would look like with another coat. Not really close enough pic either.

That said perhaps refering back to what Dan, Lyle, and myself had said about our coating procedures is in order. To be clear I would not disagree with the bennefits of dual coating in a dry on dry procedure for products with a drying/bodied/coating aspect. That seems to be where your going here and rightly so as any innitial coat (whether lite or heavy) is going to act as a seal similar to old painter techniques or like using a sanding sealer on interior wood. Makes for a better look as the second coats solids (both dying oil and pigments) sit on top the dry first coat. So please note that when I imply multi-coating not being needed with AC that I am refuring mainly to wet on wet coating to where an applicator is striving for a finished look right then and there. Just doesn't work that way with AC. With spraying two wet on wet medium coats, a little backbrushing, and a little spotting here and there I have seen no need to apply a second coat after it dries. Reason being that it is only the pigment itself being even or not even that can call an AC type of deck as unsuitable. Pick or make a custom offering of AC with enough pigment and its end of story.The end goal here is not to acheive a darker/richer/wetter look when the job is dry by way of tons of non drying oil such that some products provide or push but rather to have an even pigment tone with a durable enough seal that will last through some weather and abuse. I mean I would say to Rick that oiling is nice but open depletion is not when you can have the best of both worlds as James touches on with a mix..

Btw.. hey James, I've always said my old dads mixing of linseed and thompsons was supposed to have been the bomb..so there ya go, mixes can and do work :)

But anyways Ken... I don't think we are in much if any disagreement, just wanted to be clear is all.

Edited July 10, 2009 by MMI Enterprises

[MMI Enterprises 289]

Kevin,

My customers, some who have been with us at the 8 year mark, would tend to disagree. So do I.

If they tend to disagree I would think it relates more to them having never experienced enough other options and a carefree attitude towards emptying their wallets to a 'maintain it more often' type busness model rather than it relating to anything of a comparison of product durability/depletion over the long run. Although I am a fan of feeding wood non-drying oils I do also believe I don't have to stop there. I can give it MORE for the sake of saving my customers long term labor and material costs. Your welcome to present how much money would be spent over an 8+ year deck care program with an non-drying oil product versus one containg drying oils. I would welcome seeing the savings I can offer my customers by way of using this or that product. Facts are facts though in my opinion and it is just not goign to work out in favor of a straight non-drying oil product.. a product that washes or leaches away faster than another is going to be seeing a deck redone more often to acheive like results. Yea sure perhaps a cycle or two in with a certain non drying oil product a deck will seem to be lasting longer but this is mainly due depletion of the pigments being slower compared to the oil. Such leads to a more opaqueness but it does not mean the wood is sealed on a continual basis which is key for long term wood health as well as consistant asthetics....Not saying such products don't look good.. just that it is inconsistant and too much change.

Here ya go I got a new acronym for RS.. 'Risky Seal'

lol..just kidding somewhat.. keep a deck up regularly with RS and all will be well. AC's better in every aspect though far as I am concerned. I bet yours and mine customers both would agree if given the chance to experience the dif. In giving customer options they tend to go with longer term savings...

..Now if ya care to lend an ear I can elaborate by taking from similar trade example in my providing interior floor care... My floor care business opperates on a schedule pretty much unheard of these days. I am like the energizer bunny or timex when it comes to ability of keeping floors up. In a world where many of your big stores are done nightly I still provide a product that gets large scale-high traffic customers by on a 2 week schedule. I save these customers literally thousands of dollars monthly in both labor and material. What I provide is supperior in every aspect and is condusive and sometimes custom to the perticular environment. Yea I could make more and sell more product and material but why I ask when I am in it for pride of work, professionalizm, and a humble existance firstly. Money or rather large profit is but a secondary grace due more to low overhead and such. I have no per store goal persay other than providing a fair service and keeping a lasting relationship. I have no goal of depleting resources by constantly recoating or stripping floors. I don't even like to strip as the labor is intensive to say the least so you can consider my labor a resource if ya like. I strip anywhere from 1-4 year after only recoating approx. every quarter. This commercial example of providing a more suitable cycle of savings on flooring can be almost directly translated into wood care if gone about the correct way..with time frames being stretched out of course... Far as the model goes it is one of having eggs in many baskets and is value based. Again though I give it MORE and turn it into value+quality. :)

[PressurePros 249]

Kevin, these are always wet-on-wet coats. I guess that it is also a matter of semantics. To me, "wet" is anything that has not started curing.

Go back and reread my description. The steps have two coats and you can see the difference between the steps and the wooden patio. The one coat (which was heavy) is blotchy and light.

[bigchaz 157]

Yes, Charlie. This technique was passed on to me from the infamous Shane "Seymore" Bresseaux.

Good answer. I've realized I no longer read posts over 3 sentences. How does light coat followed by heavy coat compare do doing a heavy coat first and then misting a light coat when you leave?

[PressurePros 249]

Not sure, but I figured based upon the caliber of finished product and having had 15 years in the business before any of us newbies came along, Shane was beyond being questioned.

PS: there is medicine for ADD (just playin')

[bigchaz 157]

Good point. Cant argue with results. Walking on the stain sounds like a good excuse to buy those cute little tyvek boot covers....hah

O and I think the back of my hand to a little childs head is the most effective ADD cure....

fyi people....I don't have children. Its a joke

Edited July 10, 2009 by bigchaz
disclaimer