Question for you wood pros

[PressurePros 248]

In an effort to tighten ship I am breaking down my profits on each aspect of my business. Today is deck day. I have a year under my belt in residential wood care. I love the gratification/satisfaction of seeing an old weathered deck become like new, but as this is a business not a hobby I have some concerns regarding my profit margins. Here is my question based upon a theoretical scenario:

You get called to do a bid..

1) Deck is covered with mold/mildew

2) Drip test confirms old finish is still in tact so it needs to be stripped. Besides, customer wants to change from dark finish to something lighter.

3) Measurements are 20'x20' surface, 70 LF rail, 4 steps standard riser/tread

4) One coat sealer sprayed on and brushed

5) Residence is a row home with very close adjoining neighbors, so overspray is not an option.

Where would your bid come in? Please include your zip code so I can see the varying rates across the country. Understanding that some may choose not to post pricing here in the open, feel free to PM me or perhaps just include how many hours total this job would take you including all the prep. Thanks in advance.

[PressurePros 248]

To get things rolling, here is my my breakdown on this job. I "pay" myself $45/hr.

I averaged the square footage to about 650

Strip/Brighten labor rate = $.35/SF (650 x $.35=$227.50)

Strip/Brighten material rate = $.08/SF (650 x $.08=$52.00)

Stain labor rate = $.45/SF (650 x $.45=$292.50)

Stain material rate = $.20/SF (650 x $.20=$130.00)

227.50+52+282.50+130=$702.00

$702 plus I markup 50% to achieve a gross profit of 33% ($351)

$702+$351= $1053

For the sake of marketing, I made this job come in at $995

[staudend 14]

I usually go 1.40- 1.50 a square to strip and seal with HD-80, Citralic and wood tux. If only Cleaning with efC-38 and staining, I go around 1.10 a square. You're right in the ballpark at 995 compared to 1.50 x 650 = $975. You will probably have to sell them a little on getting what they are paying for, because low-ballers with equally low quality run rampant in these parts, Mid Missouri, zip is 65203 for Columbia Missouri.

Nick

[Aplus 525]

I would go hungry here if I tried to sell at that price. Few would pay it.

[PressurePros 248]

What would you get for a deck that size in your area, Tony?

[Aplus 525]

About $600-650.

The market here is good, but not that good.

Being full time at this, I have to keep my volume up, and keep work for my guys. If I quoted 995 for a 400 s/f deck, I'd be lucky to sign up 1 in 10.

Honestly I don't know what to think of the numbers I hear bantered around here. Even at $600, materials and labor would be under $150, so how much do I need to make on each deck? With two guys, we could strip/wash that deck in about 1.5 hours, and stain it.......by brush & roller in about 2.5 hours. I would feel like I was raping my customers to charge 995 for 4 hours work.

Sometimes I feel like I'm hearing fish stories here....you know, I caught a fish 'this' big.

Of course this is just my .02.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

The local painters with bleach and a solid stain would beat me like a drum for that deck at that rate. They'll do 'em all day for about $400.00..

Tony's rate is more like the going market for all but the high end jobs.

[Celeste 341]

Sounds like about what we get here in NC as well.

Celeste

[squirtgun 122]

We would be in the $550 range.A bid of $995 on a deck that size would cause a customer in our area to pass out.

[Celeste 341]

I'm betting that the type of wood would have some bearing on the market as well. Over here in the east, and heading south I believe we all mostly live in PT land. Discount builder suppliers around here sell brand new deck kits for less than the $$ quoted above - people don't want to pay extraordinary prices to have their stuff maintained when they can get new for the same price. We just go with the flow and until this freezing dang weather, we were flowing just fine.

[PressurePros 248]

Thanks for the input so far guys. At first, I didn't even think this was remotely high. The problem is, this deck took me too long so my numbers worked out but I don't want to screw customers either. Using paint estimating software which includes staining decks, it comes up with an estimate of $1300+ so I'm not sure whom to believe. I think alot of people in this business short change themselves and that the true fish stories come from guys believing that their total times are far less than they are in reality. Not pointed at you, Tony. If you could get it done that fast, I admire your speed and experience.Maybe you could help me out and give me some pointers on tightening up a little.

Stripping: 3.75 hours

25 minute setup and breakdown (deck was in back no truck access..175 ft of intake and supply, mixing chemical (no chem tank), spray down and cover surrounding vegetation)

45 minute chemical application (didn't have ShurFlo yet..pump up sprayer. Alot of this time was spent waiting for dwell and reapplying to keep it wet)

120 minute rinse. I am maybe too anal about this part. I get down and under every nook and cranny. I make sure every bit of sudsing is also rinsed clean. Is this neccessary?

20 minute acid bath and rerinse

15 minute cleanup washing out sprayers, discarding plastic, rinsing plants

Staining 6 hours

10 minute setup

30 minute deburring (Cedar)

5 hours staining (this is where the problem lies I see.. I hand apply all stain by rag, hand rubbing all rails and every nook and cranny underneath rails)

20 minute cleanup

Materials: 5 gallons Cabots stain $106, Stripper $25, Acid $8 $139

Labor: 1 helper $97.50, myself $438.75 $536.25

$139 + 536.25 = $675.25 (labor and materials)

Add 50% of costs to cover expenses. I think this is where alot of people go wrong. This is a markup, not a final profit margin. I am an employee of my company and am paid as such (albeit at an exorbitant rate of $45/hr). My overhead with advertising, sales expense, gas, vehicle maintenance, vehicle insurance, equipment maintenance and depreciation, health insurance, liability insurance, workman's comp, taxes, employee uniforms, new equipment and chemical storage come in around 30%. So adding the fifty percent markup to my labor/material rate is yieding that 33% that covers expenses.

[PressurePros 248]

Carolina, around here a cedar deck that size would cost about $7-8K to build depending on the contractor.

[Pams Pressure & Clean 64]

Several things jump right out here as possible discrepancies.

1. Taking 120 min to rinse a 650 sq ft deck is a bit of over kill unless there is just something I'm BADLY missing here..
   
2. A battery powered sprayer of some type will drastically increase your efficiency.
   
3. Cedar is significantly different than P/T to work with.. It seems we all made the jump that you were quoting a P/T deck
   
4. Hand rubbing Cabot's versus say, spraying Ready Seal, is not even in the same galaxy when time is taken into consideration.
   

All of these things now considered, your price for the job YOU do seems more in line. Still it would be a very tough sell to Mr./Mrs. John Q. Public. I still stand by my original assesment that except in some of the better upscale neighborhhods, where they are more apt to pay for craftsmanship vs. the local splash & dash painter type guy, OR when they are paying for someone with the experience and portfolio of say a Reed, Everett, Pete Marentay, or Beth & Rod (sorry if I left anyone out guys) your current rate is on the very high end of the scale.

It is not necessarily a bad thing to be on the top end of the scale (we find that many time we are in the same place) because one typically can work less and make the same or work more and make a lot more than the other guy who is too cheap. You just have to tailor your business plan around that demographic and adjust accordingly.

Cujo

[James 624]

Aroud 1200 to 1300 - annual maint 225 to 250 clean and coat horizontails-500 complete redo forth year-..............

[seymore 90]

$700 to clean and seal

I'd be spraying with a shurflo and back pad like all my jobs.

[CLASSICPW 14]

Even a 20x20 ground level deck in PT would cost around $5000. My 2nd level 12x14 deck with stairs cost $5000 and my cousin is getting a 20x40 ground level built for $16,000!! I would bid @$940 for a strip job at that size and I would 3 out of 5 times get it, but it would involve a heavy sales pitch involving the whole restoration process. Fortunately we only have to use hd-80 on maybe 1 out of 10 decks. EFC-38 removes most of the crap around here and the people with the solid stains usually want the same color solid reapplied. Oh yeah, 3-4 hrs to strip and about 2-3 hrs to spray and backbrush a semi.

[staudend 14]

Exactly Classic, you have to charge more to chemically strip, more precautions are needed and some areas need reapplication. I wouldn't touch an HD-80 job for less than 900 for a deck that size. A precarb cleaning is a whole different story in my opinion, so obviously less work and precaution is involved. I wouldn't go below 600 to precarb clean and wood tux finish a deck.

For wood tux, we are talking $75 or more for stain

maybe $20 for EFC and citralic,

Plastic, masking tape (I use a ton)

Gas to and from for 2 trips (I travel an hour one way to get to good areas), PW gas, and then of course the fixed costs such as insurance and other overhead. That leaves you with less than you think.

Many homeowners in this area are willing to pay for good quality work that will last them longer than most deckers in the area.

Nick

[Henry B. 4]

Two hours to rinse? Holy Christmas.. did you bring a boat with you to get home in? I'd rinse it for maybe 20 minutes.. I'm using an 8gpm rig though and if it's a real big deck... Hook up a lawn sprinkler on the deck while you rinse the rails and the surounding area. I could seal that deck with ready seal in about 40 minutes with a back pack sprayer. Low pressure high volume sprayer.

I won't quote a price on it but I'm probably in the middle as far as that goes. I will say that I HATE stripping stain. Removing an old worn out stain or clear sealer, no problem. We just stripped a cedar deck with bright red behr stain last week that was on the second story of a townhouse and charged $900.00

I normally wouldn't charge that much but it was a rush job for a late fall wedding and I was teaching a company from another area on how to do it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Which Cabot product were you applying? Solid stain, semi-solid, or semi-transparent?

Many things can be sprayed. If you are aplying a product that has to be applied by brush or pad due to the viscosity, raise the rates you charge. Application type is always a factor in time spent on the job site.

Hope this helps.

Beth

p.s. Henry, 900 is not unheard of as a regular price for a townhouse deck. There are alot of decks around here that need what you described as a standard, and the price is fair and reasonable.

[reed 500]

I would be about 1400 plus/minus. for a deck that size and the amount of time invested, anything less than that would not be productive here in the St Louis area.

Reed

[staudend 14]

Henry, do you include masking time in that 40 min? That's what takes me the longest- preventing anything from getting on the house, with any sprayer, even a pump there will be a slight mist that the wind takes. I think 8 hours between stripping and staining would be about right for my methods at least.

Wow, sounds good Reed. I would love to get that here in mid-mo, but when the biggest deckers in the area would do it for $500, it makes it kind of hard to sell quality with such a wide margin. With their record of quality though (zero masking before spraying!!), they might not be around too long.

Nick

[Brian Keating 14]

I would charge $700-$750 depending on how difficult a strip job it would be.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

You are covering all the bases well and getting the Sq.Ft. necessary to correctly assess your costs,time and product needs.

Take into concideration for future referrence, employees. Depending on your areas demographics and going labor rates, insurances and taxes...you may want to get you price back up to where you had it before the for the sake of marketing price you listed.

This should help cover some of those costs you will incur there.

The reason I mention this is because in year 2 we literally exploded with requests and 1 crew was not enough. (get ready for growing pains)

Rod~

btw...Nick, you just made your own selling point.

[Henry B. 4]

I've done decks without masking them in the past. It's not impossible if you know your equipment well and your careful how you do it.

I wouldn't reccomend it to someone though.. too many guys would jump on it without being careful and wind up replacing the siding on the house and their neighbors.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Had to bump this one....good reading.

Beth

[Greg R 82]

yes indeed..... didn't catch the 04' part at first though so I though Ken lost his marbles :)