FREE Roof Cleaning Certifications?? Say it can't be so..........

[Kristopher Pettitt 23]

What I don't get is why "sometimes" these certificates are treated like some sort of degree or diploma. I'm not against them at all as it shows some self pride when you receive one. Again it's all about gaining that self knowledge. As a newbie gaining the knowledge from gaining these certificates could be very rewarding. Then again I could care less about the certificate, what I care about is the training.

[John T 744]

I've had more than one person on the phone ask me why I care about an Org with 80 members....I couldn't care less if they have 30 or 300.

It's not the numbers that matter to me....it's how this cake is getting baked that I find objectionable. At some point, someone will lose a job to a guy that has a Roof Cleaning Cert that isn't based on any process or procedure. The guy could get on the roof and blast shingles with pressure, ruin the roof and all the ***** Cert Committee cares about is that one of them made some loot off of training.

You know Barry I can't defend that. Once again I can see that what you posted here is going to be most likely what most other contractors see as well.

Using your example above this is where I can see the ***** Certs coming back to possibly bite them in the azz.

There not showing anywhere that their org is bonded. This can haunt them especially the BODS who's names are going to be passed around as helping write there Certs. It just takes one guy to do what your saying above and he now gets sued and he says this is what he was taught with his ***** certification. Now he may be inclined to sue as well... And guess what?? The ***** BOD's are not bonded as in they have no insurance.

This is minor but it could very well happen. The bigger picture here is what qualifications do these BODS have that made it OK for them to be the issuer of these Certifications? This is where I think most have a problem with. I can see possibly getting outside Agencies to recognize maybe Environmental Certs(very slim) and the bigger one which as far as I know neither of the 2 main orgs in discussion here is a Safety Certification. I can see possibly a better chance of an outside agency such as OSHA recognizing these standardized test(slim).

It's an uphill battle either way. As for me I get the certifications that I think can help me and I market them. Is that the only benny I get from them? I say no because I do learn a little. The PWNA Enviro Class and Certification only cost be about $90 maybe less. So it's not like it cost me a ton either.

But your points are valid.

[John T 744]

I'll tell you what I know....but let me say this, I really don't care what the man does on his own, there's nothing wrong with being a capitalist. It's when I see people with selfish interests use Org's for their own gain, and pretend they do it "for the industry" that I get ticked off.

Thumbnail sketch.....

• He started with ARCA (American Roof Cleaners Association) as the asst of Dave Westerman who created ARCA when he was invited to leave RCIA
  
• 
  
• ARCA fizzled out and in Mar 09 he hitched his pony to RCIA...posted a lot and became an instructor.
  
• 
  
• In Sept 2010, he "officially" started selling training *** LINK
  
• 
  
• He and others pushed for the RCIA to become a bonafied Org....In Oct 2010, he became Executive Secretary
  
• 
  
• When CT discovered that he was working to open up the RCIA standards to include any cleaning methods (for increased Cert revenue), CT disbanded the board.
  
• 
  
• By that point, Booz had parlayed his 2nd Org into a position with NCE and moving to ***** from NCE was almost a given.
  

Since he began roof cleaning....he's tried, almost from the start, to monetize training and certification for himself. Within a little over 1 year of joining RCIA, where he himself claims to have learned roof cleaning from CT....he was offering himself as a roof cleaning "Expert".

He could always come here an elaborate himself....almost everything I typed came from his own forum posts or CT and other RCIA members.

I just read that *** link you put up. Nick the cleaner I know pretty well. He took me out to dinner when he came into my town last summer. Good guy. Chris Tucker is a legendary roof cleaner probably second to know one. I've been reading his threads since the late 90's. He's like the Jim gamble of roofs whereas Jim Gamble always and forever wants to talk Garage cleaning and Chris Tucker is roof roof and roofs.

Chris seems to be pretty supportive of Billy Booze in that link. So that's a plus. Joe Crowder on the other hand talks about liability in there and once again I think most people will have that thought when it comes to Certifications.

So it's like a nowhere thread. Points brought up but nothing solved. Interesting read though.

[James 625]

UmACC- could be changed to read United Moble association of certified cleaners

[Cyclone 25]

I just read that *** link you put up. Nick the cleaner I know pretty well. He took me out to dinner when he came into my town last summer. Good guy. Chris Tucker is a legendary roof cleaner probably second to know one. I've been reading his threads since the late 90's. He's like the Jim gamble of roofs whereas Jim Gamble always and forever wants to talk Garage cleaning and Chris Tucker is roof roof and roofs.

Chris seems to be pretty supportive of Billy Booze in that link. So that's a plus. Joe Crowder on the other hand talks about liability in there and once again I think most people will have that thought when it comes to Certifications.

So it's like a nowhere thread. Points brought up but nothing solved. Interesting read though.

Keep in mind that CT made that post when BB was still just RCIA....before the attempt to usurp the RCIA through the board, before he was hooked up with NCE. Chris gave BB and AC a seat at the table in a plan to form an Org and both immediately proceeded to use the positions to monetize themselves. It didn't last long....the members revolted and Chris stepped in and eliminated the whole thing.

But, that's not what I was pointing out with that link.....it was the this:

Roof Cleaning Training by a Certified Roof Cleaner

Spend a day in the field, learning from the only certified roof cleaning instructor in Maryland! On the job training that you can directly apply to your start-up/existing business.

Cost:

· $500 a day for the first person

· $300 a day for each additional person

Additional Services:

· Put Bill Booz on retainer and you can call him for help and information

o $200 a month

o Set up conference calls for 1 on 1 time

· Retain Bill’s knowledge for immediate contact

o $275 a month

o Call him whenever you need him and he’ll call you ASAP

Bill Booz

NCE Roof Cleaning Instructor

Accuwash Pro Cleaning Solutions

Let the Pros do the Dirty Work !!

240-425-2845

Roof Cleaning Baltimore MD

Roof Cleaning Annapolis MD

People seem to be all dog knotted over Doug's training connection and board seat.....and don't seem to care that the guy drafting the roof cleaning Cert has a 3+ year history of parlaying a Org position into personal financial gain?

Later in the thread, he states

1 Scott- I agree Chris Tucker has been doing this for far longer than me. In fact Chris spent a lot of time training me personally.

So, he joins RCIA in march 09 and gets trained "personally" by Chris which was really just "forum and phone" and in 18 short months (two roof cleaning seasons) he get's certified, becomes an instructor and then a $ 275 a month Expert advisor?

IMHO....his history suggests that his "bonafied's" are not accumulated by participation but by design. When you overlay his leapfrogging of positions and titles with his self promotion and fee's....it seems that the two have a parallel motive.

[Jack Kramer 15]

Kris,

I understand your confusion about how many members the ***** has and no one from that org will give us a straight answer. I see the 37 commercial, 77 contractors by state, 17 distributors, and 42 Residential on there website which is very confusing. Once I took a closer look I found that the commercial and residential count is a duplicate of the 77 contractors by state. So the number that I come up with is 77 members.

Just a couple of weeks ago I saw a post stating that they had just added over 30 members from some event. If my math is correct they had only 47 members before that event.

If someone from the ***** BOD could help us understand the numbers it would be appreciated.

[Cyclone 25]

You know Barry I can't defend that. Once again I can see that what you posted here is going to be most likely what most other contractors see as well.

Using your example above this is where I can see the ***** Certs coming back to possibly bite them in the azz.

There not showing anywhere that their org is bonded. This can haunt them especially the BODS who's names are going to be passed around as helping write there Certs. It just takes one guy to do what your saying above and he now gets sued and he says this is what he was taught with his ***** certification. Now he may be inclined to sue as well... And guess what?? The ***** BOD's are not bonded as in they have no insurance.

IMO, it goes beyond that.

The ***** is a 501©-6 organization....it is one of the biggest tools in their tool box. You would think they would pursue that avenue of promotion and value....not destroy it.

And....that's exactly what this "Certification" thing will do.

A 501©-6 non profit cannot restrain trade. It must promote the "Common Business Interests" of the trade or industry....not selective businesses.

Reg. 1.501©(6)-1 states that the activities of a business league should be for the improvement of one or more lines of business. When an activity of an organization is unlawful and of such a nature that it attempts to put artificial restraints on others within the trade, it cannot be said to be conducted for the improvement of the general line of business.

Here's an example...

IRS Denies 501©(6) Business League Status To Member Service Org.SullivanLaw.Net

THE SERVICE’S RULING.

The IRS found several reasons to deny 501©(6) status to the organization, including the following:

• Private Inurement. The Service took the position that the organization violated Section 501©(6)’s prohibition on private inurement because the organization is controlled by its founder and is being used to provide benefits to the founder, either directly or “indirectly through expanded business to N.” Specifically, the IRS concluded that the organization was “formed to market [its] founder’s financial planning seminars and direct individuals to N for the purchase of financial products.”
  
• Absence of Purpose to Promote Common Business Interests. The IRS also determined that the organization was not formed to promote the common business interests of a particular industry or trade, but to refer business to N.
  

[Cyclone 25]

What I don't get is why "sometimes" these certificates are treated like some sort of degree or diploma. I'm not against them at all as it shows some self pride when you receive one. Again it's all about gaining that self knowledge. As a newbie gaining the knowledge from gaining these certificates could be very rewarding. Then again I could care less about the certificate, what I care about is the training.

The problem isn't having a place or person that provides training and a Certification (call it a diploma or degree if you will). Jack Kramer told me about his training and diploma process and it's a perfect example of doing it right IMHO. You can fail the test.

It's when the Org's themselves try and dual monetize Certs (Membership Fee + Cert Fee) that it begins to smell. The ***** is trying to mix the two....they accept the training of others but issue the cert.

NJWashingGuy's new UAMCRC could sell cert logo's and never test or train anyone....just recognize the work of others.

Good money when you can get it!

[Baltimore Roof Clean 14]

Someone call me and set up a public interview. Simple

240-425-2845

_Bill Booz

[Cyclone 25]

Someone call me and set up a public interview. Simple

240-425-2845

_Bill Booz

Is there some sort of forum gag order for the ***** BOD?

Is it because posts can't be deleted, threads can't be pulled here?

[Mathew Johnson 123]

cyclone. check you pm

[Guy B 70]

Is it because posts can't be deleted, threads can't be pulled here?

They can be Barry by any of the moderators here.........as a matter of fact I'm a moderator here. Why not just call the Man?

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Hey Guy! Hows life?

[Guy B 70]

Hey Guy! Hows life?

Awesome Matt, thanks for asking!

Looks like you're gonna have a Super Meeting in NY!!!!

[Cyclone 25]

They can be Barry by any of the moderators here.........as a matter of fact I'm a moderator here.

Go ahead then.....you wouldn't be the first ***** BOD to delete my posts or threads. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't be the second or third.

Why not just call the Man?

Why not just post the standards? 3 1/2 years is a long time....how long does it take to write a standard?

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Awesome Matt, thanks for asking!

Looks like you're gonna have a Super Meeting in NY!!!!

LOL, Was there any doubt. Just Kidding! The event is shaping up really well. People are signing up daily for the seminar, Power washing and Wood Certification CLass and the Maintenance - repair - troubleshooting class.

At the current rate of sign ups, we will likely fill the classes and I am sure we will be near or at capacity for the event ittself. It is going to be like a 2009 event reunion. My buddy The King is coming as are many others that have attended the 2009 and 2012 show. We have a lot of new contractors and veterans attending, I am soooo looking forward to the event. It totally motivates me for the busy season as it does many others. If it continues to grow, we will likely have to look for a bigger venue next year.

[apple 14]

That's right Jack. Disregard the contractors by state number. Add the residential, commercial and associates

Comes to 96 before counting forum members. That is before the newest members have been added though.

As I posted yesterday the forum members are active and are considered members of the *****. Those arent just users to pad the numbers. If we were going to do that we would count the 1000 or so listed on the forum.

Keep in mind that as of fall 2011 this org was dead in the water. None of us had been asked to renew and there weren't any plans for elections. Basically we were handed the keys to an empty house. We've spent most of the last year doing basic house keeping. Building a foundation so to say.

Let me be very clear, that isn't to say anything bad about the previous bod. I know many of them and all are great guys and have helped me a lot. Heck, half of them are still very involved today.

I guess we lost the dream somewhere or maybe guys got tired of this same old thing.

We've come a long way in a short amount of time. There is still much to do

And I challenge anyone who REALLY cares to step up and help.

It's free to be a member.

Edited February 20, 2013 by apple

[Guy B 70]

Go ahead then.....you wouldn't be the first ***** BOD to delete my posts or threads. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't be the second or third.

Why not just post the standards? 3 1/2 years is a long time....how long does it take to write a standard?

See Barry I was just trying show you that although your opinion of me is not scale-able, I'm not petty or short sighted as to change or delete any of the conversations that have been going on. Why? Because there's nothing to hide, cover up or delete. Being as smart as you are I would have thought you would have gotten that right off, my mistake.

You (And The Others) don't care to have questions answered for "Understanding" you (And The Others) want or demand answers so you can continue the barrage of negativity that really has nothing to do with the Org. but certain Members of said Org.

Why not just talk to someone that can answer your questions on a public call Barry, or is it Lois Lane now?

[Cyclone 25]

Why not just talk to someone that can answer your questions on a public call Barry, or is it Lois Lane now?

If you can't reply to my posts without snide comments, please just don't reply. Being a MOD, You should show a little more professionalism and try to keep the conversation on topic, not bait people into a argument.

[NJWashingGuy 31]

We've come a long way in a short amount of time. There is still much to do

And I challenge anyone who REALLY cares to step up and help.

It's free to be a member.

The bottom line is that with giving away free memberships, the doors are not being knocked down. The excuse of "join us and help" is another way of saying help me, we need it. Since you are the trailblazers leading this industry into the future, you should ask yourself these questions to see how you compare to other national compaines.

1. What kind of CEO acts in public the way that Ron does on the boards?

2. What BOD (individually or as a whole) is going to talk down to people who differ in opinion with them?

3. What does this org really do for powerwashers?? Have the non-members take the logo down after an internet hunt??

4. After being discovered as a fraud, how long should you remain in your hole prior to sticking your head out again??

5. What has this org done nationally for pressure washers ?? Other then create dissention among those that post on the forums.....which by the way is a low percentage of pw'ers nationwide.

6. After having violations of federal law pointed out what action has the org taken to correct it??

7. Is this org bonded and insured to offer these certs ??

8. Should you morally & ethically allow training that you know nothing about to be used as a way of baiting new contractors to attending events hosted by those that run the org to get the time in requirements waived, in order to trn a profit from them??

9. Who makes you the standard setters for the rest of us?? So far, I and apparently many others are not impressed.

10. When you fail and admit that this was a fraud, will you close the doors like other companies that have not sustained themselves in the marketplace??

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Please do not point the finger of negativity at me, I will not be blamed for the mistakes that have been made in the re-re-re launch of this org.

Edited February 21, 2013 by NJWashingGuy

[John T 744]

As I posted yesterday the forum members are active and are considered members of the *****.

.

This Part Chris is no good. I have a gut feeling in a non profit you can't count this as membership. Non profits get tax breaks for a reason. Memberships are usually broken down on who can vote and who cant by the bylaws. That usually works with BODS as the only ones who can Vote or your membership at large.

You guys decided to count active bulletin board members as members of a national non profit org when you also have paying members something is not right. Calling the Paying members as Donor members so you can count "Free" members in with them... Something seems amiss.

Donor membership in itself to give "free" members now the right to vote sounds like your in a collision course with corruption. What are you going to do with a "money man" who comes in down the road who wants to donate more money for his membership? Are you going to give him the ability to have more voting powers(corruption)?

What's the main reason you guys are counting "free" membership in with "Donor" members? Who's the brain who came up with this within a non profit?

These are tough questions but don't forget the majority of us here are business owners and some of us(very few) understand a little bit more with non profits and IRS breaks.

So please explain why free membership counts as ***** members in a national non profit?

[John T 744]

Members have to be treated equally. To have 1 contractor ***** free member vs. 1 contractor who has a donor membership and BOTH are considered ***** members yet 1 can't vote(free member) to 1 can vote(donor member) this appears to be a huge red flag. Contractors should be treated equally as members of there all being called members.

My concerns here would be 2 things.-- #1 now is my business. Is this worth me joining?? #2(past union life still has me thinking like this) is this a fair system for contractors? Is it when 1 can vote and 1 can't?

[Guy B 70]

If you can't reply to my posts without snide comments, please just don't reply. Being a MOD, You should show a little more professionalism and try to keep the conversation on topic, not bait people into a argument.

Oh you got to be kidding!!!!!!!!! So it's ok for you to be snide, it's ok for you to be "Not As" professional, it's ok for you to call someone Lois Lane, it's ok for you to bait people into an argument......but no one else can do that??????????? What A Hypocrite!!! You sit in your high and mighty throne and pass judgement as you see fit, on who you see fit and then make a statement like that???? God A Mighty What Gall!!!!!

And you still avoid the question of calling Bill although you expect your answers answered. The Man said he'd answer your questions, just call him, what's the problem Superman???? Same thing you called me, what's the difference barry??? Oh I forgot, it's a whole different set of rules for you.

You came here and started after me, if you think I'm not going fight back after you attacked me???? If that's what you call less professional, then I'll take that, and I always will. Mod or no Mod. I didn't call you names, I didn't attack you, I didn't question your professionalism......but it's OK for you to do that to me???? OK just wanted to make sure I was clear on that......Thanks!

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Guy. some of us do want answers to questions. But the issue behind the questions is the defensive manner some of the responses to the questions occur. the history of Orgs, successful orgs take a more professional approach in their interaction with John Q. Public.

You dont see CETA or IWCA out and about in pissing matches with people that question thier objectives and the manner in which they try to meet them. Every-time there is an aggressive post or a response in a passive aggressive manner in which some of the responses may be precieved by the BBS community, it takes away the credibility of the BOD members and the *****.

What or how people ask questions and critique the *****, even when it crosses over the line with personal insults, may not be the best path, BUT every-time a BOD member responds aggressively, it takes a chunk of credibility out of the ***** and its leadership. If the ***** org and BOD wants to be more than 5 letters that gives away free memberships (only to recruit 300 out of 10000 contract cleaners out there) and have them taken seriously, take a look at the history of the debates and their outcome. I ask you look closely and objectively at the history after the ***** convention and public debate that essentially led to a stagnant period of the org that followed. If you search the threads, you will clearly see that very little has changed and that History is repeating itself. I have seen it before as have you. Without credibility and respect of veteran contractors who have been doing this for a while, I fear that the ***** will implode and the ***** will never come out on top in these debates. Too many people know the history and too many BOD members have history that is memorable. Giving out free memberships to boast increased numbers just doesnt fly. It says that your membership is worth nothing.

For what its worth, and I will be the first to say that I am not an org person nor will I ever join the ***** again, if the ***** and BOD wants to be the leader in this industry, get rid of the baggage with history and provide some results that one would expect from a national org representing an industry. Create an environment of transparancy. I can see as far up the elephants ass as the guy holding the flashlight as can most other contractors here on the BBS. Years ago another org had BOD members offering classes and certifcations for the org and there was a huge, and I mean huge fallout and ugly debate that followed. Some BOD members remember it, they have to as if I recall, some may have been in the debate at that time. Why repeat the process and then yell we are transparent from the highest mountain. People dont, wont, cant, buy it! And can you blame them. Its insane by definition; repeating the exact same process as done before expecting a different outcome.

Do I think that there is a place for a national org in the industry? Yes it could clearly be benificial but I cant see it happening. Too many egos and too much history.

[NJWashingGuy 31]

Guy,

With all due respect, I read the posts here by Mr. Booze. He should answer back if he believes contrary to what is being written. Why does anyone on these boards owe him a phone call?? No one can talk over the other one on here and there will be no sides to the story. It will be public for all to see. Unfortunately, it appears that the past posts are biting him in the backside and thats why he is exercising his due diligence. Maybe after reading all of this he learned something.

I heard about the last town hall meeting..... it would appear that there are some mis-statements of fact in the above posts. I have seen enough to formulate my opinion of him. I think that many others have to.

I would also love some answers to the questions I posed above...