Acrylics ..... I can't take it anymore!

[RPetry 564]

This stuff is insidious. Bad for business, bad for the consumer, IMO bad for wood, and the manufacturers just don't care. After the third deck this spring wanting a "restoration" because of peeling acrylic I decided to make a personal protest and boycott any stain manufacturer that makes this stuff.

Guess what? Even Cabot's that I had some respect for the quality of their solid stains is making the stuff. I hate solids. Will take one or two a year when its slow or its a friend or a neighbor of a good customer but come on, build the friggin thing in plastic if you want a painted look.

Case in point. Cedar deck, decent size, footprint ~ 800 sq. ft. 5/4 ok wood. Customer likes the look of their neighbor's PT deck and tells the contractor to do the same. Goes on vacation. Two years later the deck is a mess, and the custom made vertical balustrade is rotting.

Yeah, an oil based primer should have been used. But come on, once the acrylic fails its only a matter of time before moisture gets into the wood with nowhere to escape.

A Delmhorst meter, pins sunk to the max, showed readings between 14% and out of range. Cedar is rotting underneath this nasty stuff, hidden from view.

Terrific people. Friendly, down to earth, and kind of understand whats going on. Being a sap for nice people, commit to stripping the horizontals as a first step. Yeah, I can get it off with $200 / 5 gal. stripper, but are they able to pay for the labor in applying this "pudding" by hand to 100' of balustrade ? We both lose. Its no win.

Yeah, RemovALL 310. Got a sample to test in the mail today. If it can go through an airless less than the size of a VW bug and works, its a maybe. Spent more money and time wasted on mediocre strippers than anything else in this business.

I've got more... Try matching Cabot Soiid colors from different retailers. Or better yet, matching Cabot Solid colors from the same retailer with different solid stains. Or one more....did Valspar really just purchase Cabot's?

With the new VOC regs in the Northeast, its only going to get worse. Ok, rant over. Don't feel any better but please...no acrylics on exterior wood.

[reed 500]

Rant on Rick. I have had two acryllic removal jobs in the past two weeks. No way to describe it but that stuff sucks. On the first one, found two boards that had rot under it, the deck was two years old. The second one, took 20 gallons of stripper at super plant/grass killing strength to budge it, then had to do a lot of sanding to get off what the sealer couldn't budge. Plus, found the name "Jane" written in the acryllic when the first layer came off.

I absolutely will NEVER except another one of these, yeah right, too time consuming to do. The result was great but the PITA factor has to come into play.

I feel for ya Rick.

reed

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Its this kind of thing that many dont understand is vital to our ability to provide a great result and prolong the life of wood. The lazyness factor manufacturers put into their product for the so called sake of the homeowner is short sighted to say the least.

It is not low in maintenance nor is it easy to keep up if you are not knowledgable.

And as Rick has stated, it only leads to other problems and it is up to us to fix it and then the customer is asking for something similar...well guess what people...it is up to us to educate the customer that if they want their wood to look good for longer periods of time, take care of it!

Keep the maintenance regular and use products that are of ease to use and maintain by either pro or homeowner in the interim.

Yeah, I know exactly where you are coming from and agree that the so called 5-10 year products are the worst thing anyone could apply to their exterior wooden structures. They promote lazyness and neglectful regard of the structure only to suprise them down the road with ..."oh S*#T! It gonna cost how much?"

The K.I.S.S. method is better in the long run for all concerned.

Rod~

[Celeste 341]

Spoke with my sister yesterday - she's in the midst of having her deck replaced. My offer: "Please let us come down and seal it for you". Her reply - I'm just putting down something clear myself (as I'm saying no...you need some better UV protection) - "I don't care if it turns grey, I just don't ever want to do anything to it again!"

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

Don't get me wrong - I love my sister and she's not usually STUPID - but at what point do people finally get it!

[CLASSICPW 14]

How many apply acrylics? I've done 1 so far this year, on a deck that was so far gone it was either "paint" it or replace it.

[JFife 14]

Rick,

Removall 310 will go through a small sprayer, don't worry. I've used through 5/8hp, .41gpm no problem.

[PressurePros 248]

I got a call ALREADY to strip the Cabot's SPF48. the people hate the way it dried. I am a little shocked Cabot's put this crap onto the market. My estimate was priced at $4/sf and the people about died. They wouldn't commit and are gonna "talk it over". I really don't want to do it, if they want to pay the exorbitant rate, then I'll tackle it with HD and boost.

[Celeste 341]

Well, re=-reading this thread....it seems that the stain people are trying to make a "longer lasting product" which means scary removal for our profession. We need to hop up and down on our chemists to develop the "anti-acrylic" stripper :)

[James 624]

No matter what type of film is use it promote's keeping moisture in the wood.

[CLASSICPW 14]

Someone makes a breathable acrylic, but i can't remember where i read it.

[JFife 14]

There are many 'breathable' latex acrylics used on log homes, but they are not for deck use. Work great on verticals, but are either too soft for floors or peel. i guess everyone is trying to stay ahead of the voc laws, I've been reading some screwy stuff about all of that---some chems aren't held to a voc standard--acetone, methyl chloride, etc. Suppose it is from lobbyist action. The first person that finds a good waterbase for decks that is easily recoated and strippable in most applications will be rollin'. Anyone ever tried DEFY on a deck?? I've been meaning to test it.

[RPetry 564]

Rick,

Removall 310 will go through a small sprayer, don't worry. I've used through 5/8hp, .41gpm no problem.

Jon,

I have an old Binks Super Bee, 3/4 HP, 1/2 GPM, 2500 PSI that weighs a ton but will probably outlast me. I assume this is adequate to push the Removall 310.

A little help if you don't mind. Do you have to remove all filters? What size tips do you use? And where do you purchase it?

I bought a sample from some company in Ohio and if I recall, their price per 5'er was ~ $250 plus shipping. Seems way out of line as I can purchase the same quantity of Back to Nature BFS II at a local industrial supply for ~ $180.

Napier Environmental's distribution in the Northeast seems to be very poor. Boston Restoration Supply outside of the city carries it but thats a long way from NJ.

Thanks in advance Jon for any info you can supply.

[JFife 14]

Rick,

That sprayer will be fine, btn works well also, but is thicker to spray (in comes the sprayer power by a 454c.i. big block). Do you have ICI Delux stores up there?? They sell HydroStrip 503, a private label of Removall 310. They priced to me for around $40, but I ended up getting it for about $32 per 5'er. Like I said, the benefit is that you can get the Removall through a smaller sprayer.

I don't remove filters, but it wouldn't hurt. Also, use a new hose and use it for nothing but Removall---you know the drill i am sure. I spray with a .517 with good results. If you are removing a "slick" product--say some new Sikkens from a wall or Poly or something else, I've had good results misting a light coat, let it scuff the surface for you so the stripper will hold, and then lay it on. If you try and spray a heavy coat on some vertical poly.....well, it will be an expensive lesson:) Also, performance is significantly improved if you brush the area once the stripper has began working, and then mist another light coat, the easier you can make it for the stripper to hit bare wood, the better.

[RPetry 564]

Jon,

I must be dreaming... ICI's Hydrostrip 503 is the same product as Napier's Removall 310 and it goes through a reasonable airless and costs less than $40 per 5 gals. and it will remove, not just break up in already failed areas, acrylics from wood? I must be dreaming...

Never heard of ICI but found a listing for a store ~ 40 miles away. Closed now but I'll try again Monday. If any of my statements are not correct, please respond. My profuse thanks for your help.

Gotta settle down and hit myself upside the head. Gotten excited by strippers before only to be let down on the job. But I have read many of your posts over the last few years and you are certainly one of the most experienced and knowledgeable contributors.

Thanks again.

[JFife 14]

I strive to make dreams come true:)

All you've said is correct (if you call biowash they'll confim the "503" part, and double-check me so you get the right number.....all of the products are like 502, 503,504, etc)

Regarding getting off all the product, it WILL take of anything on the SURFACE. It is notproductive for removing something that has penetrated.....it wouldn't remove Readyseal or TWP for example. Take off paint like a dream or Sikkens or acrylic. But if you took off an acrylic deck stain, you'd possibly have to lightly (and quickly) re-wash with naoh to remove penetrated areas. I am sure you know this, it'll be just like btn, and expect nothing else, except thinner and works faster.

jon

[JFife 14]

Oh, and like i said, my opinion is that a thin misting, followed by a heavy layer (needs to be as thick as whatever you are removing) does the trick, the initial thin layer to "break" the surface is the trick.

[charlie 14]

Jon

I use Defy. What do you want to kno.

Charlie

[RPetry 564]

it'll be just like btn, and expect nothing else, except thinner and works faster.

jon

That is music to my ears. I generally turn down acrylic stripping due to the extreme labor of laying it in by hand and cost of BTN. Most people are unable or unwilling to pay the price I have to charge. Meanwhile, their wood swells so there are virtually no gaps left on the horizontals so that water just lays on the wood, adding further moisture underneath the failing coating and promoting rot.

I appreciate the airless info and also application tips. Even if I have to hit the vertical wood with a wire brush after the first mist, it sure beats anything else that I have heard or experienced as far as removing acrylics.

Dependent on weather, I should get to the job site mid to late this coming week. If I can get my hands on some quantity, I'll spend a day just testing.

Thanks again Jon. I'll let you know how I make out on this thread. Maybe I can save a few decks without customers taking out a second mortgage!

[M Pearlstein 14]

One of the greatest sales tools I have found is using 3rd party articles from newspapers or magazines to support a point. Does anyone have or know of any articles that state how bad Acrylics are for the wood? This moves the focus of the discussion away from "the work and cost required to strip it" too "the value the homeowner will receive" from removing this crap and properly taking care of their deck.

Also if anyone has any other articles on any area of wood restoration or pw'ingin general please email me or throw up a link. I heard that last year a non insured PW'er ended up trippin 3 GFI's and than had the homeowner let him run his power from the garage outlet and ended up burning down the house. Since he had no insurance and the HO policy was limited this cost the HO a bundle. I also heard a rogue PW'er killed a lady in Long Island but I am thats another story!

[RPetry 564]

Mark,

You can try & wade through the US Forestry Lab articles at the following link...

http://www.firstgov.gov/fgsearch/index.jsp?nr=10&mt0=null&ms0=should&mw0=acrylic+deck+stain&in0=domain&dom0=www.fpl.fs.fed.us+www1.fpl.fs.fed.us+www2.fpl.fs.fed.us&submit=Search&db=www-fed-all&st=AS&rn=10234&parsed=true

Or try your own search on that site.

[James 624]

As far as GFT's it's the homeowner's resopsibility to provide a safe work area. I have found many Un- safe work area's that had to be fixed.

[squirtgun 122]

One of the greatest sales tools I have found is using 3rd party articles from newspapers or magazines to support a point. Does anyone have or know of any articles that state how bad Acrylics are for the wood? This moves the focus of the discussion away from "the work and cost required to strip it" too "the value the homeowner will receive" from removing this crap and properly taking care of their deck.

Also if anyone has any other articles on any area of wood restoration or pw'ingin general please email me or throw up a link. I heard that last year a non insured PW'er ended up trippin 3 GFI's and than had the homeowner let him run his power from the garage outlet and ended up burning down the house. Since he had no insurance and the HO policy was limited this cost the HO a bundle. I also heard a rogue PW'er killed a lady in Long Island but I am thats another story!

If the guy cleaning was plugging into the power that should have been a clue to the homeowner that he might not have hired the right guy.

Poor wiring isn't really the fault of the contractor but it is one of the reasons we all carry insurance.I have started having homeowner flip the outside outlet breakers off while we work.Explain the risk and they will be happy to do it.

As for the guy who killed the woman in NY.Yes,it happened, he was an employee of a painting company that also offered PWing as part of their services.