How NOT to clean a deck

[PressurePros 248]

Previously posted was a video showing a company using hot water and a surface cleaner to clean a deck.

[Jarrod 22]

Still no responses huh? Think people, come on you can do it.

[James 624]

I use warm water all the time for maint. between 100/125. No chems are needed !

[PressurePros 248]

Jarrod, I think some reading your post got hung up on the wording. As was proposed, I do have real world information backing up claims that high pressure and hot water will initially cause visible damage to the wood. The proof is my eyesight. The damage is visually much more substantial than the microscopic or long term affects of using a proper detergent. My proof is following two other 'companies' in my area that use these techniques. When you walk on one of their decks it feels like you are walking on a raised grid. It's been proposed that this effect can be sanded away. Sure it can, at the expense of an inordinate amount of time, a substantial depth of the wood's surface and the homeowner's wallet.

Techniques have to be balanced against effeciency and in our case, profitability. Can an entire deck be sanded as opposed to chemically stripped? Of course it can.

I think Jarrod's point is, are you guys that do decks able to be profitable doing one deck per week? Do you have customers willing to pay $3000 to sand and seal a 24'x18' ?

[James 624]

In cold weather say 40 degree's and you use 125 temp water. You will cause some splitting and cracking of the wood. That's 85 degree differents in temp.

[JFife 14]

what if you built up to it Jim?? Do you ever use hot water?

[Celeste 341]

What would you say the safest degree difference would be? You were saying from 40 (deck) - 125 (water) would cause cracking/splintering; an 85 degree difference is a lot, but what about around 35-45 degree difference? 80ish degree water isn't hot by a long shot but is warm enough to give the chems a little assistance.

Celeste

[Jarrod 22]

All right Ken! You are on the right path! We are almost there folks.

[Littlefield 65]

I realize the thread is about decks per say, but I have to agree with Jon F. Alot of people think that there is only one way to do things right up until they see another way work well. Compared to chemical stripping, blasting and sanding an entire house down might seem ridiculous to a deck guy. However, alot of things can chamnge the efficacy of a particular method. Consider access to a large wall with steep hill in front that reqiures climbing a 35 foot ladder every time you want to re-wet the wall. Not for me, I'd rather blast and sand. No chems raining down on me, no slipping off a ladder thats too slippery, no running around trying to keep things wet enough to strip 3-8 coats of Sikkens Cetol.....Blast it once, take the time to sand, and you never will want to get wet again ;)

[Jarrod 22]

Key phrase - "I realize the thread is about decks per say, but"

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Consider access to a large wall with steep hill in front that reqiures climbing a 35 foot ladder every time you want to re-wet the wall.

Heard that loud and clear! Alternative methods do have a place in wood restoration.

Beth

[JFife 14]

Jarrod, I think you may be correct in that we are all probably having a battle of semantics here, but it is educational for those like me that enjoy learning nonetheless.

First, I'd question you time of restoring a deck (700sf) in an hour or so. I can see this for a re-coat strip for TWP or something, but I cannot buy it for stripping Behr, CWF, or other tough products. Another thing to consider when reading my points---I've not done a deck that I didn't think could improve by buffing. Maybe I'm not as skilled of a restorer as others, or perhaps my homemade solutions are improper, but I almost always get felting. I don't always correct it, but I see it.

Regarding Ken Fenner's (PressurePro) point about his acquired knowledge of hot water use, I respectfully disagree with that as well. He points out that he KNOWS it damages wood, because he has seen what his competitors results are. I'd say different people get different results. Ken has gotten terrrible performance out of Readyseal. Beth/Rod don't like it. But check out Reedster's results with it and tell me it is a bad product. I put CWF on a deck one time and it did really well. I think the key was I did it PROPERLY, by the directions. Now Ken, if you go out and restore a deck YOUR way (the right way) and use warm/hot water and still see extreme destruction, then I'd say your point has validity.

I personally think warm/hot water would be a great help for wood refinishing. Even if just used like Celeste said, to warm up the wood so the chems have a chance to work. Deck chems work best at 72deg, so I think that would be really helpful this time of year to extend some of you guys' seasons by a couple weeks on each side.

[PressurePros 248]

Hi Jon, Merry Christmas! I happened to see this before I ventured out for the final holiday preps and decided to respond. I have to clarify that I am not opposed to alternate methods of cleaning a deck. I am not so close minded as to think I have the be-all-end-all method of doing anything. Your points of doing things properly (as evidenced by your successful application of CWF) will make a huge difference in final results. The 'right tools for the job' parleys into the 'right technique for the circumstances'.

The point I made in my last reply of 'knowing' the resultant damage done to decks may just be personal experience. I based my hypothesis upon the following factors. Two independants around me use hot water. One uses high pressure, the other uses low pressure. Neither use chemicals. Every single one of those decks I have stepped foot upon, 100% of them, showed abnormal signs of raised grain. Albeit this is assumed proof as perhaps the techniques in which they use the hot water may be the mitigating factor.

I also need to clarify 'hot water'. I am talking about an 80-90 degree rise not merely warming up the wood for proper chem reaction.

It was probably a bit egotistical to have even titled this post like I did, for all I know the company that is shown in the video has a very satisfied customer base. At the very least I know their database is far larger than my own. As a sign of my Christmas giving, I am going to remove the link to the video LOL.

[JFife 14]

Ken, I just truly wonder if hot water WOULD make things easier or not. I've never even owned a hot machine, never needed to. But i do wonder on those decks that i've had to strip twice/three times, if hot water would have made a difference. I have determined this year that straight caustic soda is more "feltuous" (a term I'll coin) then professionally-mixed chems. I have also determined that bleach can be used very successfully in the right apps. And while

[seymore 90]

I have also determined that bleach can be used very successfully in the right apps.

Welcome to the club Jon... :cool:

[Jarrod 22]

Jon – Actually the time for me stripping and brightening a 700 sq. ft. is correct. And that is a complete strip. The deck would have an oil based stain on it such as TWP, Pennofin, or Thompsons etc…I run away from decks that have Sikkins, Behr, CWF etc. on them. We always do complete stripping – right down to bare wood. I inject my chems on. I don’t use a deckster. In my opinion, those things are way too slow. (Here comes the lynch mob again! LOL) You should try the stuff I use, you will love it. I have never fuzzed up a deck with it. I’ll be glad to send you some if you want.

The reason why I walk away from decks that have water based stuff on them is because it is too hard & time consuming to remove it completely. I have also found that most people don’t wanna pay what it’s worth to restore a deck with water based stuff on it. Besides, I can restore 2-3 oil based decks in the same time it would take to restore 1 water based deck. I know HD80 or F18 fans are gonna chime in and say “use HD80, it’ll take water based stains off.” Last summer, I tried to remove Behr from a cedar deck (that was done by a lowballer in 2004) I tried F18 & HD80 with no success. I have to admit, the stain was globbed on pretty heavy though. Anyways, there are plenty of easy decks to do here, so I’ll stick with those – we will probably do about 150 in 2006. That’s good enough for me.

I have enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread. I love stirring the pot for this reason. I hope the next time I get out my spoon, people understand that I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings. Getting people fired up and posting like crazy is good for all of us. Heck, I’ve never heard of cobb blasting before all of this. I learned something new, thank you!

Merry Christmas everyone!!

[Littlefield 65]

I've used warm and hot (up to 150 degrees F) to strip log homes and decks. I will say that there is a point where the extra heat stops making a difference, right around 150 with ambient air temps around 45. I apply chems mixed with the hot 180 deg water, out of a 30 gallon drum that stays warm for a while. I then rinse with no more than 150 degree water. Got normal furring for the finish I was stripping. It all buffed off. Life was good. On another note, you guys that can "specialize" with just penetrating oil removal have it made!! Although I'm a little jealous of someone that can stick with only easy jobs bragging about how fast they are...;)In my area, if you're not attacking Sikkens Cetol, Behr, etc, you're just a painter, not a wood rest. pro.I advertise right on my cards, "Complete Sikkens removal" Hows that for a specialization?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Rich,

You are so right! If you can take off the tough as nails products most others can't, let 'em know! It does make a difference.

Beth

[PA Dutchman 14]

about the original post....the company whom Ken has "brought out" is one of our competitors....Though their techniques leave them out of the loop, they do have a TV commercial on late at night....during UPN's 10:30 pm programming, 'king of queens', 'everybody loves raymond'....

From my own observations their equipment sits more than it is ran. In their defense their was snow on the ground in the video....so anything over 40 degrees would tend to create "steam"

[Dave O 15]

Rich

I hear you loud and clear. I must be nuts because I'm one of the few companies that will not walk away from the ones that others leave for the customer to sit with the now what look upon their face, thinking they had just called a wood restoration proffesional.

I wake up in the morning looking for these PITA jobs. When I leave a proffesional result, and attitude behind that's how I get the next job. Especially in Waterford LOL

[Littlefield 65]

Dave, Amen Brother!You said what I was trying, (and failing) to say. If I want to call myself a professional, I can't make myself walk away from the tough jobs. What I have, (gradually) learned to do is charge what its worth on the tough ones. Thats still a work in progress, but going in the right direction.

[James 624]

I have had trouble posting ? Knowing your options is part of woodcare. I try everything and I know my limits. I was told bleach will cause wood cancer and don't use hot water. Both are Pulp Fiction !!! Know your surfaces and chems and what they can and cannot do or take.

[Jarrod 22]

Hi rich, I still consider myself a wood care pro even though I walk away from PITA jobs. 2 reasons - They don't wanna pay me what it's worth, & I dont wanna invest in a cobb blaster & buffer so I can do 3-5 PITA jobs per year. BTW - I wasn't bragging about my speed - I was just explaining why I do things the way I do them - because it is fast for me, that's all.

Dave - I didn't know you drove 45 min. to Waterford to do decks. 1 trip to bid, 1 trip to strip, & 1 trip to stain - that's 4.5 hours of drive time!!! Hey, would it be allright if I gave you all of the PITA jobs this year? If so, please let me know, Ill be glad to send them your way.

BTW, I always refer PITA's to 2-3 other companies that may be able to help them. They always thank me and say "WOW! That was very PROFESSIONAL OF YOU!"

[Dave O 15]

No problem. That's why we travel all over michigan. Alot of time is spent in Traverse city area.

I won't get into the 1 day trip thing. That makes no sense what you just said to me.

[Jarrod 22]

Let me explain - Day one - 45 min drive to the cust to bid, 45 min drive home. Day 2 - 45 min drive to strip, 45 min drive home. Day 3 - 45 min drive to stain the deck, 45 min drive home.

[Littlefield 65]

Sorry if I came out with that rudely, Jarrod. Just ribbing you a little bit about being able to NOT have to take the PITA jobs. Although I have to admit, I've been refusing all Sikkens jobs for a couple years now, unless they want to remove and go with something else. recoats I send out to my competition that loves them. Keeps them busy, and away from the work I like. ;)