Honest debate Iraq

[Jeff 232]

I'm just wondering what everybody's opinion is on the Iraq war. You can't trust our politicians to really be honest when debating the war and I'd just like to know what others think about it. Now most know that I'm liberal in my thinking. With that said I do and always have believed in a strong military, VERY strong. I believed in the war in Afghanistan.

On the Iraq war I never believed it was a good idea and I never really believed that George Bush was going to Iraq for terrorism & 9/11. I know many will say that I'm a GWBush hater but besides that whats your feelings on Iraq

I always thought GW Bush was going to war with Iraq even before 9/11, he didnt like Saddam since Saddam tried to put a hit on GBush Sr.

Do you think the entire war or some of it has been handled wrong, should we have ever gone, should we stay the course for unlimited time, should we have a date in mind to start pulling troops. should we institute a draft so our stressed military gets a break, should we send a couple hundred thousand more troops and squash the insurgency and bring Iraq back to order

I personally think we never should of gone. We had Saddam contained and he kept Iran in check, now Iran doesnt give a crap what anyone one says and Europe is a bunch of s--- heads and will never support us.

I'm thinking back the troops back to outer areas and see what happens if Iraq seperates so be it. Im thinking we should get our troops out within the next 2 years and only leave a small amount of troops to try to watch out over our interests

I hate the thought that we are fighting a losing battle for a country that is fighting its self and will end up hating us anyway.

As for the middle east, just about all of it is starting to hate us the U S. Hell I'd like to nuke them all right about now and take all the oil. I think Muslims in that area are going to always hate us and its going to get worse.

What do you think, I'm not trying to start a big fight I'm just trying to see what others think other than what you hear or read in the news

I want our mititary that is doing tour after tour home, either get out completly or draft others to fight.

God Bless Our Troops & The USA

[kevinw 14]

My son just commissioned as a 2Lt in the Army in December. He's about to be deployed over there...and I'm not crazy about it. The bottom line is that this country doesn't have the stomach for war...we're good for about 6 weeks, but then we lose interest.

Then the media starts their game...their job is to report the news, and if it isn't sensational enough...they'll start making news. Report one side of the story, omit facts, change the context...whatever it takes to get people to watch. Remember Dan Rather?

Do we need a draft? I don't think so...but we do need our politicians to quit using the military, and military funding, as a political football. Right now, there are thousands and thousands of vehicles, airplanes...you name it...sitting at military bases because Congress won't release funding to make the repairs. The vehicles in use in Iraq/Afghanistan are basically being salvaged from other vehicles to keep them running. God bless those guys, they're doing amazing work with what they're being given to work with...but they can't keep patching together equipment.

We've got the manpower, expertise, and training to do the job...but the politicians can't keep their hands out of the pie! Sound familiar?

kevinw

[JOgden 1,003]

Simply put...I don't believe the media. I know we are being mislead. That is all I need to say on this. Others have their views and thoughts to be heard. BUT - Have you heard the saying "we have seen the enemy, the enemy is us"? Consider.

Rod!~

I agree that the majority of the media has their own agenda, and that is to make the President look like a fool. I normally only watch Fox News due to their more un-biased reports, they are not only like this with Bush but with previous Presidents as well- meaning they report the good and bad, not just the negative.

[Chappy 138]

Conservative or liberal, I too know people over there and they are tired. Tired of going to one area and putting down the enemy, then going to another area and doing the same only to have to go back to the 1st area and its out of control again,. Thats why I & others say there isnt enough troops

Tell you the truth if I thought we had enough troops and were making great progress I wouldnt question it. But I just dont think there is enough troops to do eveything that needs to be done.

Like I said I hate the muslim nuts and I would be for a war in the middle east and I'd say an all out war at that, but we pull from afganastan to go to Iraq and we havent cured the ill at all anywhere andwe arent going to do it with 135K troops

It would be political suicide to start a draft, but thats whats needed, we are already showing weakness to the enemy and it started with poor planning.

Jeff

I spent 7 years in peace time army, You know how much we hated moving back and forth into different training situations. all we wanted to do was go somewhere and kick some butt. So we go to war and the troops complain. troops complain about everything, its tradition. gripe, gripe, gripe. but when it comes time to reinlist, they are doing so in record numbers.

As for the draft-interesting statistic I heard from the history channell the other day - Only 25% of all troops that served in Veitnam were draftees. Have you ever heard that the army then was mostly enlisted? never

But the reason we lost that war is that the politicians wouldnt let the army win, and the media whipped up the sentiment against it. Sound familiar? the only difference now is that the troops are kicking a**. the media cant call them draftees, so they label the professional, volunteer soldiers as dropouts that cant get jobs in this terrible Bush economy. They ignore the positives that happen every day in Iraq, because they dont want to get off their lazy butts and go out to the field to see the good that this country has done, with the use of their best and brightest. the Libs in congress like Murtha slander them, the media call them dunces. But they still go, because they see the need to help an oppressed people. even when some of those people dont want them and attack them. But they still do their jobs and ask for another tour.

Sorry for the rant, but Im done now.

[Chappy 138]

" It would be political suicide to start a draft, but thats whats needed, we are already showing weakness to the enemy and it started with poor planning. "

Poor planning? Give me a break. How do you plan that the populous of a country that you just defeated their army, (the 5th largest standing army in the world if i remember,) the army that was mostly draftees, that had one religious sect, that kept the other religous sect under their thumb, that could arrest you, rape you, feed you into a wood chipper, while they made your family watch, (or you watch while they did that to your wife and doughter,) decides that it would rather kill their neighbors than make a stable society?

Now Im done

[Chappy 138]

thank you Kevin W for your sons service. Be proud. Pray a lot.

[HotShot 34]

Nice rant Jon :)..

I have a friend that's a Navy SEAL and his team was just hit the other day and 1 was killed. That was the first SEAL killed since 2003...we are doing things over there that we have no idea about and he says that most of the people love to see that Red, White and Blue patch.....

God Bless our Troops...God Bless our Country....

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

In this day of readily available news from so many sources, don't you think just ONE news outlet would have broken ranks and reported the truth?

Uh uh!

Rod!~

[Mike Williamson 198]

Uh uh!

Rod!~

Not even Drudge???

[Jeff 232]

I like a good debate thats why I brought this all up, I like to hear what everyone has to say and thank you. I like to hear what the average guy has to say instead of the media

What ever course we go, I pray its for the most part the right course

JL

[kevinw 14]

Jon,

Thanks...I do pray...every day! And I couldn't be prouder. His decision to join the Army came out of the blue. He walked in one night and told us he was going to join the Army. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I asked what his thoughts were. He said, "Dad, no matter what the kids at school say I believe we live in the greatest country in the world...and it's worth fighting for." I did the only thing I could do, I hugged him and kissed him. He's awesome!

It is encouraging to see how many realize the media coverage for what it is. It's more encouraging to see my son, and his friends, and their commitment to being prepared (squared away), their concern for their men, and their passion to do the right thing.

The previous post about the SEAL was on target. I hear those reports everyday...the majority of the people in Iraq and Afghanistan are glad we're there...and their greatest fear is what will happen if we leave too soon. That would be an incredible tragedy.

Kevinw

[Scott Stone 604]

There are so many points to be made so late int he game, but, I have a few observations.

AC guy said we were still in Vietnam. No, we left about 30 some years ago and left them to their own devices. Of course, they quickly fell to the communists that were being supported by the Russians and the Chinese. They did not have much of a chance. That war really was a proxy war.

Second, there are a lot of differing opinions on how the "war" in Iraq is going. If you look at history, there were still Nazi sympathizers that were firing at American soldiers for years after the suicide and defeat of Hitler. We are still well within that window.

Someone else said that there were over 30,000 women and children that have been killed. While that may be true, and I am certain that there have been abuses by our troops, rewgrettable as that may be, most of those deaths have been inflicted by their fellow countrymen, and those same abuses and murders are why the US is over there trying to help them to learn what freedom is, and help them establish it.

Just a casual observation, have you ever noticed that in wars the US is involved in like this one and Vietnam, how little regard our enemy has for human life, whether their own, or that of their countrymen? I can't imagine our military wiring up one of my kids to blow up a couple of soldiers...

Next, this has got to be one of the largest political footballs of history. The Democrats are so into going against anything the elected president says, Mind you in the second term there was no dispute, so he was elected. That he could say the sky is blue and they would disagree with him. Their agenda is not Bush's agenda, and anything they can do to cast aspersions is what they want to do.

Finally, you cannot say you support the troops and not the war. IT is an intellectually vacant response, and you are not taking into account how the troops feel about what they are doing in an environment that few of them arehave seen before. Unless htey lived in Yuma Arizona all of their life, I cannot imagine anyone that has seen somethign similar, yet they are reenlisting in records percentages.

Finally, everyone is devastated by the american death toll. Keep this in mind. There are over 100,000 troops there at any given time. (BTW this is a low number.) Many have cycled in and out multiple tours, so figure 300,000 different people have served in the militarty in Iraq. (again, a low figure) yet less than 1% of them have fallen in harms way. For our side, it is the least bloody war in history.

[Don L 14]

Well said,Scott.

...if the tiger is eating my children,I kill the tiger.

[smokey51 14]

My son is an officer in the Air National Guard and is privy to much information he cannot share with me. He just told me the other day if the US public knew just half of what good was going on, they would be solidly behind the war. He also said their was plenty of special ops going on and he hoped the New York Times does not find out about them because they would broadcast it to the world!

And how soon the American public forgets. They did a poll the other day and less than half of the responders could remember what year the 9/11 attacks occurred! How sad.

God bless all our troops, our leaders, and all the people of the US!

Terry

[Mike Williamson 198]

And how soon the American public forgets. They did a poll the other day and less than half of the responders could remember what year the 9/11 attacks occurred! How sad.

Speaking of how woefully uninformed the average US citizen is, here are a couple links to videos from an Australian TV show...They can to the US and interviewed people on the street. Funny stuff, but sad.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Not even Drudge???

By the time a person can sift through it, there is not enough left to be worth mentioning. You would be suprised to find out how much we are deprived of where the turth is concerned.

After talking with other people from various countries that do not have influences made upon their news, the real story is quite different.

~I Clean~

Rod!~

[Mike Williamson 198]

By the time a person can sift through it, there is not enough left to be worth mentioning. You would be suprised to find out how much we are deprived of where the turth is concerned.

After talking with other people from various countries that do not have influences made upon their news, the real story is quite different.

~I Clean~

Rod!~

And we as Americans don't have access to the news from other countries? They don't put their news on the internet for us poor deceived Americans to look at?

[John T 744]

My opinion is that we set out to do a job and we must complete it the way we planned it. If the plan was to take out Saddam Hussien and let the Iraq's now run the country then we should get there asap so our troops can come back to the greatest place on Earth which is the Great USA. If where going to **** off over there like we did some in the Vietnam error then this country will stay divided as it was back then and no one will be happy,

First and Foremost everyone hear and everywhere else in this country should be 100% behind our troops because they are just doing there job and they are the ones who make this country great..because they do there jobs!! As for the Leaders in our Country some of them are complete morons and its in your power thanks to all of our great troops in the history of this country to go out and VOTE to make a difference. Vote some of these Draft Dodging Morons out of office. Some Senators come to mind here. As for the last two Presidents neither one of them don't have a clue what its like to defend this country while being in the heart of the battle. These two guys should be ashamed of themselves to ever try to send our men and ladies off to die when they sit behind a nice cushion Leather chair in the Great Oval Office.

What this Country needs and most likely will never see is a Regular **** or Jane who has put in the sweat and tears to make this country great be picked to be a leader of the free world which starts right here in this Great Country of ours.

Where is the Walenza guy type that was a union Leader that represented his fellow workers and who become the leader of his country(Poland). This is the type leader we need here..but unfortunetly we most likely will never see this type leader at the very top because of $$$$.. Money alone fuels this country and if this country where to ever go belly up to to its massive overspending then this could be the end of our great run..along with all the terrorist problems that could explode at anytime..This country needs to get a grip and get it fast.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

And we as Americans don't have access to the news from other countries?

I once caught a glimpse of the BBC which they only show about 1/2 hours worth late night.

They don't put their news on the internet for us poor deceived Americans to look at?

Noting the sarcasm here; The internet is not a media of reference I spoke of earlier. Newspaper and TV were.

How many 3rd world countries have internet?

Personally, I don't watch news much except to see the weather forecasts. As for searching the internet, I don't know about you but mine is related to our business for the most part. Dial up being the only available connection slows things up a bit which limits the amount of time I have to spend on it. With Business, Family and responsibilities always at the forefront, theres not much time left to sift through news sources to find anything worth reading. There is always drama and bad news in them, never focusing on our humanity and the good things people do but in the powerful leaders and the latest screw up of a celebrity. But I am just one person and what does the media care about me, you or the people who live next door? Nothing, unless they have done something newsworthy which always has the negatives attached. Thats the focus. Negativity is news.

Ask yourself this: what percentage of the news is ever contributing to the positive outlook and encouragement of the world?

Rod!~

[JOgden 1,003]

My son is an officer in the Air National Guard and is privy to much information he cannot share with me. He just told me the other day if the US public knew just half of what good was going on, they would be solidly behind the war. He also said their was plenty of special ops going on and he hoped the New York Times does not find out about them because they would broadcast it to the world!

And how soon the American public forgets. They did a poll the other day and less than half of the responders could remember what year the 9/11 attacks occurred! How sad.

God bless all our troops, our leaders, and all the people of the US!

Terry

I agree. I've heard this from other military families I know in the area...

[Mike Williamson 198]

I once caught a glimpse of the BBC which they only show about 1/2 hours worth late night.

Noting the sarcasm here; The internet is not a media of reference I spoke of earlier. Newspaper and TV were.

How many 3rd world countries have internet?

I have the BBC on Satellite 24/7. You can also find the BBC on radio in most areas.

So you're saying that the news reporting abilities of a 3rd world country that's not wired for the internet somehow have the capability of reporting the "truth" that we don't, or that other nations that are not 3rd world countries do? Does this "conspiracy" reach to ALL nations except those lucky 3rd world nations?

As far as the media, I don't see how it matters whether it is print, radio, TV, internet, or whatever. The information is out there and available. I'm simply curious how our government and media block our access to these news sites that are surely out there!

First, you're saying our lack of "truth" is a government conspiracy, the media doesn't tell us the truth, etc, but then you say you don't have time to watch the news, and you don't use the internet except for your business. If all that is true, how do you KNOW we're not getting the truth, since you obviously don't know what's even being reported!

No doubt much of it is negative, and much of it is mindless. I don't watch it either, and I don't search the internet for news...my point is simply that we DO have access to all types of news, not just what our conspiracy laden US news outlets report to us. I've heard this claim before, that we don't know the truth, because we don't have access to the news that "other" countries (who are usually blatantly anti-American, but they certainly wouldn't be biased, would they) report. It's just ludicrous...makes no sense.

[Adrian 155]

AC guy said we were still in Vietnam. No, we left about 30 some years ago and left them to their own devices.

No we did not!!! We may have pulled out the majority of our fighting troops, ground and air support. But, we are still in the areas, with US embassy and outpost' and bases, and airfields as with most countries we have been to war with or have been peace keepers with.

http://vietnam.usembassy.gov/

with that embassy there are troops assigned, they live at a military base and have guns and bullets and all kind of things that make big explosions for the protection of the citizens and our interest' of that country not 30 years ago but today.

Our presence has also kept a sense of peace and have created a pretty nice tourist economy for the area.

30 years I will agree with, that we pulled out the majority of our troops.

... but that we pulled out entirely.....NO (just like you said) nope, not true, no matter how convincing your statement might read or how right you like to make yourself sound on this point. It's just not true..... we always have US interest' to protect in other countries because we have our hands in so much of the world peace mix.

[The Cleaner 14]

I say we pull all our troops out of every third world country that we babysit.surround our borders here at home with the mighty alliance of our armed forces.Point all our big guns at the people who wish us harm,and spend the trillions of dollars we would save right here at home on our homeless and veterans and developing other energy sources to fuel our own well being,and to HELL !! with all of them!! Religion has been the reason for almost all the wars in history,John Lennon had it right (Imagine No religion) (72) Virgins my A$$ !!!

[HotShot 34]

Religion has been the reason for almost all the wars in history,John Lennon had it right (Imagine No religion) (72) Virgins my A$$ !!!

***edited*** I figure that I will just further your education with some facts my friend.

Let me start by saying that much of Islam has been spread by the edge of the sword. That isn't because Muslim advacates were particularly violent. It's because their religion actually advocates this kind of thing. The difference between that and Christianity is that when Christianity was spread by the sword it was done so in contradistinction to the actual teachings of the faith. But for your sake of argument, I will include the numbers of these (not so) Christians.

Religious Kills: Salem Witchcraft Trials. 35 people in 1692. In Europe Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft in 1431. Over a peiod of 300 years from 1484 ro 1782, the Christian church put to death 300 thousand. About 1000/year. The sources are World Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana. Also Newsweek, Aug 31, 1992.

There were 2 inquisitions. 1st one around 1017 and the Spanish Inquisition followed in the 14th century. About 2000 executions altogether.

7 Different Crusades and tens of thousands died in them over a couple hundred years.

If you want to include...3000 innocent people on Sept 11, 2001.

_______________________________________________________________________

Atheistic kills: China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinease. According to the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. 1/3 of the 8 million Cambodian died under Kampuchea. The Chinese at 2 different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35-40 million people.

These deaths were result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion, and all but the very last actually assert atheism.

Yeah, lets imagine if there was no religion....If you werent a part of the "master" race you'd be dead!!! It's a good thing that Christians see other people as precious to God and we're all the same in His eyes. We all came from 1 man and 1 women named Adam and Eve. Good thing we're not slime that evolved from the ocean, into a monkey and now human. Life acutally has meaning and worth, you're not just another animal trying to survive....

[The Cleaner 14]

Instead of calling you an ************, which I will not do, I figure that I will just further your education with some facts my friend.

Let me start by saying that much of Islam has been spread by the edge of the sword. That isn't because Muslim advacates were particularly violent. It's because their religion actually advocates this kind of thing. The difference between that and Christianity is that when Christianity was spread by the sword it was done so in contradistinction to the actual teachings of the faith. But for your sake of argument, I will include the numbers of these (not so) Christians.

Religious Kills: Salem Witchcraft Trials. 35 people in 1692. In Europe Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for practicing witchcraft in 1431. Over a peiod of 300 years from 1484 ro 1782, the Christian church put to death 300 thousand. About 1000/year. The sources are World Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana. Also Newsweek, Aug 31, 1992.

There were 2 inquisitions. 1st one around 1017 and the Spanish Inquisition followed in the 14th century. About 2000 executions altogether.

7 Different Crusades and tens of thousands died in them over a couple hundred years.

If you want to include...3000 innocent people on Sept 11, 2001.

_______________________________________________________________________

Atheistic kills: China under Mao Tse Tung, 26.3 million Chinease. According to the Walker Report, 63.7 million over the whole period of time of the Communist revolution in China. Soviet Union put to death 66.7 million people. 1/3 of the 8 million Cambodian died under Kampuchea. The Chinese at 2 different times in medieval history, somewhere in the vicinity of 35-40 million people.

These deaths were result of organizations or points of view or ideologies that had left God out of the equation. None of these involve religion, and all but the very last actually assert atheism.

Yeah, lets imagine if there was no religion....If you werent a part of the "master" race you'd be dead!!! It's a good thing that Christians see other people as precious to God and we're all the same in His eyes. We all came from 1 man and 1 women named Adam and Eve. Good thing we're not slime that evolved from the ocean, into a monkey and now human. Life acutally has meaning and worth, you're not just another animal trying to survive....

Everyone else can have a say, but i mention religion and i am the enemy.Sorry if i offended any one but that is how i feel,this is america !! I think you got to much time on your hands.***edited***

[HotShot 34]

yeah, I hate to confuse you with the facts...I know your opinions are more important