Ron M's great caustic debate - split from another thread

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

This thread created because another thread was severely off topic. However we felt that the topic of caustic chemicals did deserve it's own thread.

Enjoy! :)

Beth

[Mike Williamson 198]

Not to mention the tempertures of both!!!!!! oh temps, no one even knows what i'm talking about again.

I realize i may sound like a jerk, You guys need to study this stuff your self.

Often on a conrete cleaner is tell you it will destroy sealers.

Yes, you really are coming off like a jerk. I realize you have a HECK of a lot of knowledge about pressure washing and running a business, but there's really no need for the sarcasm. You're not the only one who knows about chemicals and how they affect things, how they're affected, etc. Your comments lead one to believe you think you're the only one with this knowledge.

I apologize for not clarifying what the problems were with using hydroxide on roofs...that issue has been discussed here and elsewhere so much that I just assume everyone knows the main arguements against it. I didn't attack Henry's method, since I don't even know what it is. I simply said that Hydroxide is NOT the way to clean a roof, and that I hope they're not teaching that in the class.

[Paul Kassander 26]

I really like these type of threads. Arguments aside the passion each of you have for your methods really puts out an enormous amount of useful information. Usually by the end it all gets clairified so it all makes sense. I believe it is this passion that you(we) all have that makes us successful. Great posts.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide

Let’s step back; this was taken out of context. I meant that results are the one in the same. I mentioned the only difference is that one will disinfect better than the other. I also have pointed out chemicals change make up depending on what they are mixed with.

The cleaning results will be similar.

One will work better on certain dirt’s than the other and be quicker. In the end you can achieve the same results.

If you contacted a roofing company or asked your local chemical doctor he will more often tell you to use caustic.

I may include the test and processes at the next PWNA convention. That should upset some folks.

I’m so chemical safe and spent a good portion of my time figuring all this out about 15 years ago.

Yes I was causing damage to properties. I wanted to continue safe processes and realized that after years of use with these products I was causing undo wear.

I know about this and I’m not close minded, I learn things everyday and continue too.

Some may think I’m a know it all? If you’re talking about Fleets, Flat work, decon or reclamation you’re not going to tell me much. (I still don’t claim I know it all)

Further more all chemicals are dangerous if not handled or use properly. My mother told me that when I scrubbed the bath tub and mixed bleach with ammonia.

The Caretakers' Website strongly advises School Caretakers NOT to use bleach in their Schools!

Bleach is very dangerous. If bleach is mixed with ammonia, a chemical reaction takes place and it gives off dangerous chlorine gas. Chlorine gas was also known as Mustard Gas in World War II

The link

http://www.thecaretakers.net/CMS/content/view/46/1/

I’m going to play poker, I hope that helps.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

I really like these type of threads. Arguments aside the passion each of you have for your methods really puts out an enormous amount of useful information. Usually by the end it all gets clairified so it all makes sense. I believe it is this passion that you(we) all have that makes us successful. Great posts.

Yeah i went back and read, i was taken out of context. I was not clear... My fault.

The process is everything, all chemicals are dangerous if mix with the wrong stuff. they all can change, that was the point and dont attack the usage until you know the process.

[racechaser 64]

Sorry Dan, take your shiggles and throw them is a bucket of caustic with some water added. Try and find that shiggle in the morning....LOL

Not to mention is you test the bucket and find out what the new chemical in the bucket is??????????

So Ron if you are arguing the same point as me, Why did you jump down my throat??????

Scott

[James 625]

Is poker a card game or a sexual thing ?

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Is poker a card game or a sexual thing ?

It depends on how big a hand you have and how you play with it... LOL

[Mike Williamson 198]

It depends on how big a hand you have and how you play with it... LOL

I think I see another thread split coming.

[PLD 14]

Chlorine gas was also known as Mustard Gas in World War II

No, Mustard gas is the common name given to 1,1-thiobis(2-chloroethane). Chlorine gas is just plain old Cl2

[Ron Musgraves 240]

So Ron if you are arguing the same point as me, Why did you jump down my throat??????

You attacked the process and the integrity of something you apparently know nothing about. Like most on bbs do.

I’m not a huge supporter of the PWNA. I do not bash anything about anyone that I do not know for certain they are incorrect.

You where attacking and making fun of Henry. He and I have had our difference but I’m a member of the organization and people work hard to make these processes better each year.

I have said in the past I have made mistakes and I have learned. Often trial and error is how we get perfect.

I have given many reasons why I refute your comments; I have given you example after example. You have not given me one argument except complain I’m wrong because something in writing I said was not clear and mistaken.

At least I have given one reason, it could harm at the wrong level.

I have a chemical (ACID) I use and its terrible stuff. When we ad the inhibitors it makes it safer and it does not harm certain metals. Chemistry is amazing to me.

I'm no scientist but I have learned that chemicals can be used safely. Decisions and time will only tell the truth.

We often cannot see the damage that’s done immediately. This is what 24 years of experience has taught me. I have watched damage and studied others along with my self and drawn educated decisions about process.

To make this as simple, I jump your throat for saying your way is better. Yet you don’t mine or Henrys Process.

I neutralize all roofs back to a safe pH level. I’m certain that 99% here don’t. I deal with corporate America and they care and understand wear and damage. Home owners trust we know what we are doing. (Should They?)

I can’t rattle on tonight anymore about this subject. If you want call me. If you do not understand me I’m sorry.

This very thing was a problem On www.pressurewashinstitute.com a few weeks back. If you attack a process and say it suck or is incorrect and have not seen or heard the specifications then your just plain wrong. I attack back because? Well it is wrong.

Believe me I’m no Henry lover or for that matter a PWNA. But I have to stick to my respect that Henry runs a more successful operation than you may. Again I don’t know you so I really can’t say. DO you get it?

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Being fair, Bleach... would not completly destroy the tile. it will take pigment out. So again process, %%%%% = good job

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Ron there is more to a chemical than just its ph level.

Thats another point, glad you understand. safety is pH destruction is composition. ( what the chemical becomes) that a huge part. thats why i sked if anyone actually played with there chemistry set?

[Ron Musgraves 240]

My response was total sarcasm as to what is going to be taught. Sodium Hydroxide is the worst thing to use in my opinion.

Stop giving and opinion, I have education and experience About a process. Not and opinion because you now know that a shiggle will melt in a bucket loaded with caustic. ( at what level will it melt? ) Do you know.

What if the bleach you used wasnt of the shelf at wal-mart and it was higher than 3%, would it be safe? are you certain?

[Ron Musgraves 240]

500psi is safe? You say its not.

What if the PWNA tested the distance of psi 8 inches from the end of orifice? What if at 8 inches in there cleaning specs your meter at the pump needs to read 500PSI to be safe at that distance?

Did you stop to think at 8inches its now 250 PSI a safe process.

[Ron Musgraves 240]

does anyone get this?

[racechaser 64]

does anyone get this?

No Ron I don't. I say that Sodium Hydroxide is a degreaser and shouldn't be used on asphalt shingles for that reason. You say a shingle will melt in a bucket of sodium hydroxide. But you continue to imply I'm some kind of idiot, rattling off about things I'm totally misinformed on.

One minute you're telling me I'm wrong, next post you're agreeing with me again.

So yeah you're argument has me totally confused.

Scott

[racechaser 64]

You where attacking and making fun of Henry. He and I have had our difference but I’m a member of the organization and people work hard to make these processes better each year.

I never made fun of Henry personal or professional, just his roof cleaning class If he used the roof cleaning chemical he sells in his store.

Scott

[racechaser 64]

Stop giving and opinion, I have education and experience About a process.

So Ron, just forget about responding back to me. I'm going to try not to post on this anymore unless I'm directly quoted or mentioned.

I'm not worth you're time anyway. After all I'm just one of those STUPID contractors you inferred to earlier.

I don't have BBS like you and Beth. But I never have heard Beth or Rod belittle people on this board as a sub class of people as you have us contractors in this thread. In fact it has taken all I have in me to not respond to the personal and professionsal attacks you have made against me and my industry.

I am respecting Beth and not flaming or bashing you like I feel like. I know that you are a respected leader in our industry. Fine!! I respect the contributions you have made. But I cannot tolerate the PURE ARROGANCE AND DISRESPECT you have shown toward the general membership here. So have fun with the debate because every Florida roof guy is gonna fight this for me.Because in OUR roofing forum, Sodium Hypochlorite is the preferred method.

Scott

[Jeff 232]

No Ron I don't. I say that Sodium Hydroxide is a degreaser and shouldn't be used on asphalt shingles for that reason. You say a shingle will melt in a bucket of sodium hydroxide. But you continue to imply I'm some kind of idiot, rattling off about things I'm totally misinformed on.

One minute you're telling me I'm wrong, next post you're agreeing with me again.

So yeah you're argument has me totally confused.

Scott

I'm not getting in the middle of all this fun, but I THINK Ron is saying S Hydrox is OK on a roof if it is neutralized after, which would & could make sense. Althou I have been confused at some of the posting, but hell I get confused by my own postings lol

Now as the famous Rodney King said "Can't we all just get along"

[Ron Musgraves 240]

i never said your chemical couldnt be used safely.

If you just call maybe,maybe, maybe i could explain more clearly.

your getting upset over nothing.......its all about the process & %%%%%%

[Ron Musgraves 240]

Thanks rodney

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Scott,

We are glad to have you here as a part of TGS. We hope you will continue to be a part of this community. You are a professional among the many professionals here, and Rod and I are personally glad we had the opportunity to meet you last year.

Beth

:cup: must have coffee... :cup:

[Mike Williamson 198]

Being fair, Bleach... would not completly destroy the tile. it will take pigment out. So again process, %%%%% = good job

Sorry, but that's just plain wrong, IF you're talking about barrel tile roofs. You've got quite a few here who do these roofs every day with bleach. Do you think they'd be in business long if they were removing the coloring of the roof???.

[PWkid 79]

Mike you can't argue with arrogance. He has his own bbs,successful company,pwna member,24 years in the industry. What possibly could he learn from TGS.