What's your opinion...

[Mike Williamson 198]

Monday I was washing a house for a lady. Everything was going great, until I begain rinsing the garage door. This garage door is the syle with several windows along the top section. I was using pretty low pressure to rinse, but when I hit one of the panes, the entire window came out and fell into the garage. The glass shattered, and as it fell, also scratched the trunk of her car. I'm freaking out, thinking GREAT, here's a $400.00 job that's going to wind up costing me more than I made to fix the damage.

However, when I picked up the parts of the window, I found one of the trim pieces from the inside was missing. There is a frame that is inserted from the outside, and the glass is held in from the inside by plastic trim pieces, one on each side of the frame. The top piece was missing, which would be a safe bet as to why the window gave way. It is obvious from the frame that the piece had been missing for quite some time (3 sides were clean, 1 side was dirty where it was exposed). I didn't use any more pressure than is typical to rinse, and I kept the wand at least a couple feet away.

The ONLY way to have avoided this would have been to either NOT wash that part of the garage door, or visibly inspect every window frame in the house to assure that there were no defective or missing parts.

I explained all this to her at the time, and she was fine with it, and gave me my check. Now she's calling after speaking with her husband, and he's saying I'm responsible to check the windows first and wants me to pay to fix the damage.

If you were in my shoes, would you think it was your responsibility to take care of this?

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Where is Celeste....she went to law school....

Beth

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

That's a tough line and it's one that is too much hassle to dispute. I would replace the glass but the frame that was already a problem is their responsibility in my opinion.

No it is not your responsibility to inspect the windows...your not a qualified home inspector. It is their property and it is their responsibility to make sure that their property is capable of withstanding the process in which they have hired you to perform. I always ask if they have any problems with the windows and doors with leaks in the past. If they say no, they are in essence acknowledging their property is sound.

Rod!~

[Richard 17]

Hi Mike

I've been fence sitting on this one all morming.

Some people are more than reasonable, and some are not.I would have a tendancy to look at this from a few sides.One is weather there is any feeling from the customer about prior knowledge about the missing trim weather they expected a problem or not.How accesable would it have been to inspect the inside of the door? (Not that I would have looked at it unless I suspected something).What future business would you expect from this customer/friends/neibours?What is the $$$$ of damage to the car?Are they looking to have it buffed or painted?

I hate it when this sort of thing happen.I feel for you.Let us know how this plays out.

[Don L 14]

Hey Mike,

The Mister is obviousley considering the "damage"to the vehicle,not the window.He doesn't want to pay for it,and has an easy excuse....you pressure washing fool!If he remains unreasonable,not admitting his liability(probably had the mindset that his wife set it up,so he thought nothing of it),thenyou need to evaluate this customer's impact on your potential biz,if you choose not to repair the vehicle.You know the deal about customers dissing your service,measure against their longterm prospect of income/loss of income.

Not an easy spot to be in.If you decide to repair,use your insurance,that's what we pay it for.(This is obviously going to get you stabbed by the ins .co-oh,it's great isn't it.We pay the premiums to protect ourselves,then get penalized for using the service...a lot like mortages...anyhoo...)

I would ask The Living God,in the name of Jesus Christ,to direct me,then DO.MOHO.

Let us know outcome.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Jeff 232]

Mike if they are going for the window and car repairs, I just dont think I would cover it. Id tell them that they should of warned you. Someone had to of taken that trim off that caused the window to fall out. I wouldnt pay. I just put out $300 plus for a mistake, that wasnt really our fault, it was border line. But this isnt your mistake

[Jarrod 22]

If I was in your shoes, I would have 1 of them half way up the husband's keester.

All jesting aside, you are not responsible for the damages at all. In the future, I would give every potential cust. a disclaimer sheet. Mine gets longer every year.

[TNT Pressure Washing 14]

Mike I had this happen to me. I was doing a garage the same wa you were but the panes were plastic. I was doing the door and one came out and blew in there garage. I looked through the open are and saw it laying on the floor of the garage and looked at the trim pieces you speek of. There were only 2 of the 4 pieces (bottom and one side) holding it in and they were not in great shape to say the least. I told the home owner what had happened and they understood. I can see people wanting you to pay for their stuff. Thats a natural instinct. The husband said you should have inspected the window, well (1) like Rod said you are not a home inspector and (2) you do the exterior of the house not the inside of the garage so you wouldt have seen the trim. My 2 pennies

[Jack Kramer 15]

Mike,

Do you have a signed disclaimer? I require every customer to sign a term and condition waver before I start work. The clause for damage follows:

1) Damages – A Brilliant Solution LLC is not responsible for damages due to improperly installed siding, loose shingles or siding, broken or opened windows, improperly sealed windows, wood rot, defective construction, improperly secured wires, loose or improperly installed gutters and leaders, and improper caulking. In every aluminum siding case, and in some cases in vinyl siding, the sun and weather will bleach the color or cause it to fade. Power washing, which entails removal of chalky, gritty of failing surface materials, may cause the faded aspects of the vinyl or aluminum to stand out. A Brilliant Solution LLC will not be responsible for such conditions.

Even with the disclaimer you have to do the right thing. You have a tough decision ahead of you. I don’t think you are responsible.

[kevinw 14]

Just going through a similar situation, only much, much bigger dollars involved. Blasted a log home that was not properly sealed between the logs...media went into the home, covered everything with media and dust. Whole house and contents need to be cleaned...and the client is an attorney, chief counsel for a very large corporation. When I showed up to inspect it with the customer, ServPro was there making an estimate that is over $10K! I promptly called my GL insurance carrier!

I have a little experience in this area...here's what a court of law will say, "What would a reasonably prudent contractor have done to insure the house was safe for pressure washing?" In my case, I had asked the homeowner if the logs were sealed, he said yes. An inspection would not have determined that they weren't sealed, and that improper construction techniques were used in building the home...the problem was not visibly apparent and the homeowner assured me it was built correctly...I just happened to be the guy that showed up to do the work...I got the short stick!

A disclaimer that states that contributing factors that are not visible from the exterior of the home, or not apparent in a visual inspection, are not the responsibility of the contractor would have taken care of the problem. In this case, I'd meet with the husband, face to face, and negotiate a middle ground. If you say no, you could find yourself in small claims court and they customer will go for the full montey. Better to negotiate something both of you can live with...assuming you're dealing with a reasonable customer.

Good luck!

Kevin

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Kevin,

It's normal for cob to go in to the home, and if you were washing it would have been water. Get experts who do this regularly on your side. There is always, always, always intrusion. Count on it.

Beth

[bulletproof 14]

Offer to go half on the repairs with him as a gesture of my professionalism. If he wants you to accept full responsibility then forget about it because this is in no way your fault

[kevinw 14]

Kevin,

It's normal for cob to go in to the home, and if you were washing it would have been water. Get experts who do this regularly on your side. There is always, always, always intrusion. Count on it.

Beth

We do a lot of log homes, and have used water and media. This was way beyond intrusion! We had prepp'd the homeowner for some intrusion...I was just glad we hadn't used water! It would have been a disaster.

[plainpainter 217]

This falls under the category of homeowner responsibility. You were hired to do a certain task - which all else being equal - goes w/out a hitch for most if not all your customers. Some people are accidents waiting to happen. This does not fall under contractor negligence - a myriad of things can happen - it ain't your job to forecast all of them. Homeowners are cluess and think anything that goes wrong is your fault. What if you put a ladder against their house - and then the wall caves in? Is that your fault too? Well if you applied the same logic that woman applied to you - sure it is your fault - but you have to assume the house has a reasonable strength to it. Now if this woman paid you for services of inspection, that's a different story.

[Washaway 64]

A lot of good opinons!

Mike I don't think that you should have to pay for the damages. If the window would have broken due to pressure you'd be responsible. This is a case of improper installation and faulty materials.

I hope you took pictures of the sceen. Having hard proof that there were trim pieces missing will be handy if this situation gets out of hand.

Personally I wouldn't pay.

Offering to go half and half puts you in a position of partial admittance.

[John T 744]

Mike,

Did they put a "Stop check" on your check? If they did then your going to have to negotiate with them.

I had a case last year when I Cleaned this lady's concrete Patio around her pool. This Patio was huge and it had mold plants growing on it because it was so Dirty. The price to Clean this was $400 but she was told that some of the dirt could kick out from under the surface Machine and get into her pool. When I'm done she will need her pool to be vacuumed. When I finished she was so happy how bright the concrete looked she not only gave me a check she also gave me a $25 tip. So what happens--The Husband comes home and see's the sediment sitting at the bottom of the pool. His local pool company comes out to vacuum it and they charge him $100 instead of his typical $30 charge for this service. He puts a stop check on the check that I had and refuses to resubmit another check to me unless I pay the whole vacuum charge.

The end result is we split the cost after this guy breaks my xxxxx over the phone. A month later the lady calls for me to Powerwash her house. I tell her sorry but I can't do it because of her husband irrational behavior. She was disapointed and the funny thing understanding..I sunk it to that guy good:)

[Mike Williamson 198]

Mike,

Did they put a "Stop check" on your check? If they did then your going to have to negotiate with them.

That's what I'm waiting to see...The check was deposited yesterday, and if it is a local bank, should have cleared her bank today. If it hasn't been kicked by by next week, I'll feel safer that she can't stop payment.

Here's the kicker...she doesn't want me to pay the $250.00 (her ins. deductible) for the car, just the $100.00 for the window...Which isn't a huge amount of money in the grand scheme of things...but that's still $100.00 out of my family's pocket that I don't think I'm willing to let go of.

She's a Chinese lady who responded to a "neighborhood discount" offer, and then proceeded to try to discount me further. Didn't work. When the window broke, she wanted to know about a discount for it anyway, even after I explained why it wasn't my fault. This type of thinking has proven to be typical for certain "ethnic" groups. I'm not worried about a lack of referrals, I already have a good solid customer base in this neighborhood.

Either way, I'm going to stick to my guns about it not being my fault. The husband's words (filtered through his wife) was that it was my responsibility to inspect the windows first...which is silly...I can't be expected to tour the inside of every customer's home looking for any possible defect that might cause problems. If their window is defective, if their window seals leak, if their weatherstripping on their doors leak, etc, that's not my fault. I go out of my way to assure I don't damage windows, doors, landscaping, etc etc, and I refuse to be pushed into paying for something that there was no realistic way to avoid.

Thanks for all the input!!!

[Patrick at HMSGA 14]

The broken glass left him an opening to make a claim against you, where he should have been thinking himself lucky you didn't cut yourself where you could have had a claim against him...lol

[PressurePros 249]

Facts of the case: The window was in place before above mentioned contractor came onto the property. When that contractor left there was damage. I do understand and believe that Mike is right..the window probably would have been blown out by a good storm. But it wasn't, it was blown out by a pressure washer.

This should be a no-brainer. Pay $100 and you get: a) a happy customer who will spend $300 per year with you. b) Peace of mind knowing the check will clear and that you don't have to read this thread anymore weighing your decision.

Cutting your nose off to spite your face in business is deadly. Base your decisions on monetary loss not principal. The customer is always right. And even when he isn't, he is right then too.

[Wayne S. 14]

This should be a no-brainer. Pay $100 and you get: a) a happy customer who will spend $300 per year with you. b) Peace of mind knowing the check will clear and that you don't have to read this thread anymore weighing your decision.

If you do decide to pay the $100, make sure you get a signed receipt, stating that this is final and only recourse for damages to property. (car & window) And that this payment is for full restitution of damages.

[JFife 14]

100% with PressurePro on this; you aren't in biz to right all the wrongs of the world, etc....you just wanna make a little money and sleep easy at night. Pay $100, get them to sign off, and move on.

To others that WILL (yes, it's just a numbers game) face this sort of thing, I'd suggest this: Find yourself some "cool heads" to associate with. I have about three people (I'd consider KenF one of them) that I present problems to when I'm emotionally involved. You SHOULD NOT make emotionally-charged decisions!! It WILL NOT get you where you want to get. So you prove you are "right"?? Who cares?? I sued a customer a few months ago for not sending me my money. It was insurance money, and I think they just spent it (it was made out to them). Wouldn't return calls, etc. FINALLY they at least started making excuses as to why they wouldn't pay, etc. They contacted an aquintance to inspect the job and to determine whether they should pay the money----expressed their concerns (laughable). Being one of my "cool heads", he negotiated a settled amount and we left without going to court. The fact was, they could not afford what they were supposed to pay, so I could put the screws to them, lien the house, try and win in court and garnish wages, etc......and then they'd think of something to counter-sue me for. So I let someone without emotional ties help me make the best decision, and I went with it.

I consider this another form of delagation or outsourcing. Sure, it doesn't pay, but you are outsourcing Emotion. You are letting someone that will make a more rational decision make it for you. It will really free you up once you resign yourself to this idea. Now, when I'm frazzled over one of these types of decisions, I just quit wasting brainpower and call someone.

[plainpainter 217]

I just read that you got this customer from a flyer with a reduced price, correct? Well then this is totally your fault! I hate to say it, but one of the principle of Karmic laws - is that if you are going to attract customers with rebates and discounts, you're gonna get people like that. Pay up the $100 or whatever - and then learn from this lesson. People who talk you down, want a bargain, rebates, and anything else along those lines are total nimrods. It never fails me when I get talked down for a job - things always go wrong - so to add insult to injury these people want me to pay for damages - damages that in my mind are already paid for through the ridiculously low estimate I finally caved on. Don't work for cheap people! Charge people such good money - that you don't mind once in a while covering such 'accidents'. And people that pay you well - tend to respect you more. One of my better paying customers probably would have said something like - 'Oh, that's my fault because my husband didn't properly glaze that window before you came.' Cheap customers will try and take advantage of you. Never ever never ever work for cheap folks - and if you do - accept what comes along with the territory and compensate them for the damages. If someone is stabbing you with a knife - either back away, or accept it and don't complain. Personally I back away but not working for cheapies - and if I end up working for a cheapie, I have already resigned myself to the fact they will take advantage of me somehow - and will not let myself get mad over it.

[JFife 14]

I cannot agree with that, Daniel. The more I try and "catagorize" customers, the more I find it doesn't work. I've heard people say that the HO's that are the quickest the pay you your downpayment without an argument will be the toughest to please and get final payment out of. I've had amazing, long-term customers from discounts, and bad ones. And visaversa.

There are obviously lessons to be learned from this for everyone....Disclaim, Sign off, and very importantly----understand that everything is a "numbers game". You guys that have LOTS of customers....guys that wash roofs and houses and have lots of $200-$600 bills---add up how many customers you have in a year, then figure how many "screwings" you took. Everyone post their numbers. I'll bet coast-to-coast, low end to high end, roofs to decks, everyone will have similar numbers. THAT is what you should be concerned with---not catagorizing customers. To get effective numbers, you need to see a lot of customers and have a few years worth of info. My guess is that it will be around 5%-10%, because that is what I bank on. Mine may be higher because of higher tickets and a complexity factor; but for roofs, decks, siding, I'd say 5% is a reasonable number. If you do 100 jobs next year, expect to have five problems. Don't pay, want something for free, gonna call the BBB, etc. If you can plan on this ahead of time, you can budget for it, and not be surprised and (as) upset by it. AND BY ALL MEANS, WHEN YOU ACCIDENTALLY BID HIGH ON A JOB, GET IT, AND WALK AWAY MORE PROFITABLE, PUT THAT INTO THE "IT'LL COME BACK" FUND. You'll maybe have five jobs turn out extra good, get a tip, make twice per hour what you'd expect, etc......you have to look at that on a yearly basis; not 'per job'. Those 'profits' will go to balance the 'losses' of your screwings. Like I said, a numbers game. Charge accordingly.

[Jim Carroll 14]

I would replace the window. take the frame to a glass shop should not cost to much, better to spend a few bucks than have bad publicity. it takes a long time to make a good name for yourself and not long for something like this to screw it up. I understand this not being your fault but what is cheaper, a little glass or them telling everyone not to use you.

good luck

[Jim Carroll 14]

just saw the $100 part mike, i would pay them as soon as the check clears, and not kill any more time dwelling on it. write them a check and get receipt, count it as a loss on your taxes.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Mike,

Do you have a signed disclaimer? I require every customer to sign a term and condition waver before I start work. The clause for damage follows:

1)Damages – A Brilliant Solution LLC is not responsible for damages due to improperly installed siding, loose shingles or siding, broken or opened windows, improperly sealed windows, wood rot, defective construction, improperly secured wires, loose or improperly installed gutters and leaders, and improper caulking. In every aluminum siding case, and in some cases in vinyl siding, the sun and weather will bleach the color or cause it to fade. Power washing, which entails removal of chalky, gritty of failing surface materials, may cause the faded aspects of the vinyl or aluminum to stand out. A Brilliant Solution LLC will not be responsible for such conditions.

Even with the disclaimer you have to do the right thing. You have a tough decision ahead of you. I don’t think you are responsible.

To all:

The word "Improper" is considered ambiguous and subject to opinion which will not protect you in court. The wording must be clear and unambiguous.

Loose gutters, missing or degraded gutter fasteners, failing/loose caulk, insufficient/missing window seals are more specific because they describe a condition to which neglect, omission or disrepair is evident upon inspection. Improper is a term of judgment and since that opens up a plethora of possible opinions becomes irrelevant.

Have an attorney look over your disclaimers to make sure that;

1. State and federal laws allow you to use them.
   
2. Correct any loose wording or loopholes that you may not be aware of which may come back to bite you in the behind in the event of a suit.
   
3. Be specific on your liabilities as a contractor such as Workman's comp, liability insurance and what your company will cover including a cap on the amount which should be based upon an assessment of costs in your area. ex: $5,000 damage liability. Your insurance agent can help you with this one.
   
4. Have a place for the client to sign off acknowledging they have read and understood them. Without this, the disclaimers are null and void.

Take photos of any damage before you begin work and notify the homeowner of them. Damage waivers come in handy in these instances where you can inform the homeowner and have them sign off keeping you out of liability should your work there be capable of exacerbating the condition.

If during the course of work damage is revealed or incurred, take photos of the damage and document the event while it is fresh in your mind. Contact the homeowner immediately of the situation and any agreements made must be signed off on.

Keep a damage release waiver on hand and in the case of Jon Fife, since his client said it was not a problem, should he have had her sign off that she did not hold him liable for the incident, the husband could not come back and create a problem.

Rod!~