New PW Org Poll

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Then she made a negative comment.

Hey Henry,

Beth didnt make a negative comment, she just pointed out a better way.

I was the one who shot staight and to the point, it was a question of ethics and whether or not any one see's it that way is purely up to them, they have to decide for themselves. My question was called an attack. I didnt say anything bad about the person, I just pointed out something that was a very questionable statement of advice to a member. As they are the industry leaders and setting standards, does this mean this type of advice is condonned as ethically acceptable? I guess so, I got kicked off and the other person was allowed to continue and not have to edit or respond to the inquiry of a member.

All in all, this is not something we want to be associated with. Until the org establishes integrity throughout its structure and demonstrates respect to its membership, until then..., its a contradiction in terms of the ethics we hold to and set as an example.

btw...Mom always taught me not to beat around the bush because the critter might get away on the other side. It has served me well.

Rod~

[Don Phelps 85]

Henry,

As you can now clearly see, TGS is a board where different views and opinions are respected and appreciated. Unlike that other BBS that has the narrow-minded 'Our way or no way' mentality. Having varying opinions on something is one thing. Contradicting one's own words tends to serve that individual negatively. My post might not have served the PWNA in the way you dream of, but it was with merit. Take it or leave it, but it's a valid point all the same.

Have a great weekend!

[Celeste 341]

Pick ME! Pick ME!

[John T 744]

First off I am not into bringing dirty laundry public. If one has a problem with a member then at the very least e-mail them to get it off your chest. Not to chastise them in public especially thru a very public forum such as bb.

________________________________________________________________

So.....In this particular post you say you're against such things and mention the PWNA and it's ghosts, yet in other threads you constantly ramble about your support for the PWNA.

Is this just more PWNA rhetoric and double-speak? Care to clarify? Quote by Don Phelps

_______________________________________________________________

Nope I never double speak- What you see is what you get. The PWNA has no connection today with Delco and it hasn't as long as I've been on there. So no double speak here. There history though is different and this is before I was on there still I feel that Robert did it for all the right reasons but the perception was a killer as it can be for many things. Don does that make it clearer??

Today the PWNA is NOT affiliated with any Vendor. Some Vendors work harder then others to get the PWNA to work for them and there is nothing wrong with that at all as long as its done according to the rules and if not and it is continously violated you will be shown the door. Same goes for Contractors. Are we squeeky clean?? Of course not but we try. Violators are warned.

Its just from what I see on the inside with the PWNA which is if there is a Vendor/Distributer that is trying to bring out an Org. then they will have a real negative perception on the industry because others will view it as its for them to make money off there members exclusively. This will most likely be there death sentence as far as being a true valuable nationwide org. Even if there intentions are nothing but honest as I feel Roberts was with the PWNA. That perception of him damn near killed off the PWNA back then. I'm amazed that the PWNA survived it and is still around today.

The Ultimate goal would be for a bunch of contractors to start there own Org. If that was the case and its done right then that would be the only time I think an org. can give the PWNA a run for the money over the next 10 years. Since I don't see that happening and I'm pushing 44 I will stick with an org. that is way past the baby steps stage it went thru 13 yrs ago.

IF of course a super org was to start up and kick some serious booty and it represents my company well I would join it along side with the PWNA because the PWNA already benefits my company and if another org can do that also I would not be to stupid to have my company suffer because of any ignorance.

[John T 744]

Most people love the rates that Joe Walters has for Powerwashing insurance. So who is Joe Walters??? Yup a PWNA member from the very begining and he may also be one of the founding members also.

Hey Celeste am I making you sick yet of all the positives I portray about the PWNA :)

[Celeste 341]

This is all leading back to the same answer........if an organization can benefit your own company in any way, then by all means, join it. If not, spend your dollars where they will help you the most.

With that said, I do know that it takes a certain type of person to contribute the passion necessary to make any organization work. If there is dissention among those who are a part of an organization - and that goes for the members as well - the organization is going to suffer. Whether or not I feel like the PWNA is being run well or below par should never change the fact that the BoD is made up of volunteers that are voted into office by the members and, while the members do vote, these folks do have companies to run and family lives to lead. It is extremely disheartening to feel strongly about something, invest your own personal time in volunteering and then be bombarded with complaints or insinuations. It's kind of like watching the news.....you never see good stuff on the news, only bad. Doesn't anyone else ever wonder why the reporters don't look for happy stories? Recently too much time has been spent talking about what's wrong with the PWNA....it's counter-productive to the positive that can be happening. If another org does begin, it would be good to see a strong positive member support system.

It's late - I'm rambling.

Celeste

[Don Phelps 85]

Today the PWNA is NOT affiliated with any Vendor. Some Vendors work harder then others to get the PWNA to work for them and there is nothing wrong with that at all as long as its done according to the rules and if not and it is continously violated you will be shown the door.

That's an interesting observation, John. I suppose that maybe we have a different view of what a vender is since the are two currently on the PWNA board. One is listed as a vendor that offers a discount to members as well.

[Celeste 341]

John,

Nope......life's more fun in the silver lining :)

Celeste

[Celeste 341]

Don,

I don't think that it's necessarily bad to have vendors involved.....it is all about bettering business no matter which way you slice it. Discounts to members is just an additional perk. If the vendor is making sales because of it's affiliation with an organization, it's good business. If a member is doing more business because of it's affiliation with an organization, it's a good investment....if they get a discount from another member who happens to be a vendor, it's a perk.

Maybe I have a naive point of view here and am missing something devious? Using Beth & Rod and Steve as examples.....if Beth & Rod or Steve started an org and their company offered discounts to their members, would that be a problem or would it be a way to increase membership? Increased membership numbers - with the proper goals and objectives - is what will make an organization successful, right? But like they say, membership has it's benefits. If no vendors are involved, where are you going to get benefits?

Celeste

[Don Phelps 85]

Celeste,

The point isn't whether there are vendor affiliations or not, but the credibility of some of the information being conveyed by Mr. Tornabene. As Beth stated earlier, there are vendors on the BoD.

[Celeste 341]

Oh....gotcha. Well, I gotta stick up for John on this one. He is about as above board as anyone I've ever seen on the bbs......and that's on all of them. If there is confusion going on, in all honesty, some of it may be misconceptions just through typing...things can get out of context ? You think one thing, type another and at the same time, while you may be thinking in one emotion, someone will read a completely different emotion.

Celeste

[John T 744]

Celeste--true and your a great rambeler because your a 100% right on. I wish I can ramble half as good.

Don-BOD of the PWNA can be Vendors, Vendor/contractors and just contractors. That has nothing to do with the premises of the PWNA org. In the bylaws there can be I believe up to 3 Vendors/Vendor-contractors at any one time. As for flat out contractors they can actually be the whole board at any given time. Beth can correct me on this if I'm off a little bit here.

BUT just because lets say you are a BOD it doesn't make it your org. to own because its not yours. The PWNA is its own org and not any Vendors,contractors etc. Now with that being said there are some very strong personalities involved and that is always what people deal with when in groups. Nothing wrong with strong personalities and its actually a good thing because that is what makes alot of people successful to start out with. The tough aspect of dealing with people with strong personalities is trying to keep us all on the same page and that can be exhausting at times. This is why in the profit companies you see the chairman etc. making the real big $$$$ because he or she puts in all of there efforts to make things happened. When your volunteering you can feel like your strength is just getting zapped out of you and for what...Just ask Beth. Still its a neat and tough process and for most they would say its just not worth it. I'm surprised at myself sometimes because for me its almost always about the money and I rarely do anything on a volunteering bases. If I wasn't called up by a past president there Chris Detter to join us the volunteering team I would have never done so.

Since I did commit myself I try my very best not to let down the ones I committed to.

OK now I'm rambeling........

[John T 744]

Celeste,

From my experiences with the PWNA, if Beth and Rod where to start an org. and yes they have the energy to do it which is extremely important, They will have a major problem with perception like Robert Hindeliter did and his company Delco was huge even before PWNA was around. Perception as unfair as it is can be a killer unless of course there goal is to represent vendors exclusively.

Look at the major gripes on these bb's..they come from contractors and it makes sense to me why that is. We are the ones who are mislead the most for others to make money and WE are there goldmines. So this is why I feel that an org. if it was ever to start up should be by a bunch of contractors that aren't in the business of selling other contractors there equipment,stains etc. This way the neg. perception is killed before it ever got started(That makes no sense..English is not my cup of tea but my point is clear).Now at this point Vendors can join on also.

IF Robert Hindeliter who has a masters degree and is a big time successful business man in the Powerwashing field barely got over these hurdles why would a new org. want to start up with the same damming hurdles staring right at them...This is the point I'm trying to make. Learn from whats out there and the history behind it. If there is a different example in our field I would love to hear it because I don't know of any.

[newlook 265]

Don,

I understand your question(s) to John but I also side with Celeste in defending John T's post. He has been really the only one from the "other side" :) that has taken time and tried to explain things to the best of his ability as it relates to the PWNA. Certainly I wish more BOD members would participate on this site to "unofficially" bring us non-members up to speed of what is going on over there.

[Don Phelps 85]

OK, I'm going to make one last attempt to get the point across. No one is questioning John's credibility, only the info. stated. Go back and read the posts. The only point that I'm trying to make is that he stated that the PWNA isn't affiliated with any vendors when we all know that there are at least two on the board. I personally don't care whether there are or aren't vendors on the board, however painting the picture that there is no affiliation when there is won't be ignored. Beth made the point clear earlier that there are indeed vendors on the board, yet John states otherwise. My point was more of a mole hill as opposed to this mountain that you guys have constructed tonight. Somehow it's been turned into this nonsense, so this will be my last post on the subject.

[John T 744]

Don,

Your absolutely right I'm using the wrong word by saying affiliated. I can't think of the proper word there since I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. What I'm trying to say is that none of the vendors or contractors there own the PWNA. The perception that Robert Hindeliter's Delco owning the PWNA took years and years to shake.

If another Vendor starts one up then they will be on a collision course with that Deadly perception. Does that make it any clearer?? I'm giving out an honest view and its not to hurt or stop anything. I just would hate to see anyone go through the crap that Robert went thru. The PWNA was his baby and he got a ton of bad publicity for it. Today I admire him for his efforts and I know alot of the past ugly stories. I would put the odds very low to get an org started with a main vendor strictly behind it. Thats what I'm saying....and hey I could be big time wrong about this. Its just the way I see it from what I've learned.

[PressurePros 248]

I just got the chance to catch up on this thread. It reads like a lesson in sociology. My original vote was to wait and see what happened to the PWNA but in retrospect, I would change my vote to "no". It seems when you organize people under the guise of unification all you end up with is more adversity and separation than you had before you started (religion, unions, org's)

Take this for what it's worth, but if I were running a successful business in an industry, the last thing I would do is start an organization that could serve to alienate potential or existing customers.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

If an org were to ever get started, one would hope that the same mistakes PWNA made, and is STILL making, could be avoided. I believe with good leadership and vision they could be.

Sometimes what will work at a certain point in time can be outgrown and be due for a change or metamorphesis in order to get to the next level. To me, it appears time for this. I'll give you there are changes. I'll give you that hard work has been done.

I feel very strongly about this industry. I feel very strongly about the good people in it, who have dreams and are trying to make them come true each and every day. I have a big propblem with oppressive people.

I'm going to stop here. But before I do, I'm going to add that may hat is off to a few on the BOD, and John T. is a shining star. You care, and you listen. Keep doing it. Listen to the people.

Beth

p.s. This thread was started regarding a new org, not the PWNA. We're off topic...I think. Maybe we should all get back to our thoughts on a new org? John Orr brought up a great subject.

[squirtgun 122]

I like the comment about emailing the member offering the unethical advice.Give me a break John T. if that had been any other bbs member other than a BOD member everyone would have jumped on board to read the the riot act as well.

A member of the BOD got offended for being "called out" on bad advice and ultimately the PWNA lost a contractor/vendor over it.

[Seth Anderson 14]

Every bb I go on all there main members swear by them and say that there's are the best. So with that mindset The owners of the bb's(The good ones that is) step it up to keep there's above the rest. Competition is a good thing...........

QUOTE]

I would say that the PWNA has a good bb.. but OH WAIT.. That's right I can't... You know how water gets stagnant? No new water comming in- all the good water evaporates. All that's left is crap. When the PWNA shut down the BB they shut off new water coming in... All you need now is a little time for the rest of the good water to evaporate..

[One Tough Pressure 580]

The PWNA laid the groundwork for a new org. They have done many trial and error things that will help a new org succeed and grow in a much faster way than they have.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

For those who have trouble with this thread, we respect your opinion so please do us the same in return. This is a discussion that as you can see means a lot to those who are engaged in it. Lets not detract from those who would continue this conversation in the hopes that it will bring about some mutually beneficial changes.

Stepping back I notice wherever we go, people are going to take sides. Its part of the duality system in place.

Semantically, an org is for the benefit of its members. pwna lost sight of that to their power struggle. They are not on track and are easily distracted by this practice of "managing perceptions". This is a waste of time. Trying to manage someones perceptions only gives credibility to the one they currently have...that they are not focused! Focus on the tasks (goals) and steady work towards fulfilling them is the best use of time an org can do. This is the point where we are now. Do we need a new one or not?

What?... not a great fan of diversity? Yet it exists everywhere you look. Diversity is the key to all of this, the fact that we are all different, but we are in the same industry of power washing. This is the common ground we all share.

The discussion taking place here is due to an org people had looked to for their business needs that let them down. It is sending signals that people in their good nature, do not agree with. They have a right to say what is one their mind...it is how we all will come to a conclusion of what we all need from one.

When there is a meeting of the minds, people learn things about issues that could not have possibly become known otherwise.

Short and sweet, this is communication. Listening to what others have to say, keeping the voice in your head quiet as you do and truely listening to what the other has to say.

When we speak, we want to be heard...right? Understood...right? Sometimes what we say isnt always what another may want to hear...right? But we want to be heard and understood because there is something very important to us that we need to get out for others to understand and pay attention to. But if other people are not listening fully, the meaning is lost.

Listen and be listened to. In the end we may find that we are mostly saying the same thing using different words and phrases but its that end that we are trying to get to. Its called...a mutual understanding.

We are using words here and people are trying to communicate without the human element (voice tone, volume, inflection, facial expressions, body language).

Being the least expensive form of communication, it is an internet community of people with ideas, views, opinions and concerns.

As for others who dont think this is a good place for a customer to visit, who ever said it was for harry homeowner? This is a contractors BBS where contractors come to talk about the issues concerning them.

If they happen to find any of these bbs's, does anyone really think they are looking for a contractor here? I dont. I think it would be a curiosity thing for them and they would find that contractors are capable of having serious conversations regarding their industry. I would think that they would gain a new level of understanding instead of the old stigma that contractors are all just a bunch of HS dropouts, beerguzzling, worthless, lazy, dishonest uneducated scum of the earth, but people from many walks of life with educational and professional backgrounds who care enough to come visit here and see what they can add to improve their business? There is nothing wrong here unless you would choose to see things as right and wrong, then you would be missing the point of so many who come to these bbs's...to be a part of the changes going on in their industry.

Would I invite one of our clients here? No, its not for them, its for us!

I send them to our company site that is meant for them.

Come on in, the waters fine. Contribute and be a part of whats going on. If its not for you ... your choice. We will still be here discussing the industry issues we face.

Rod~

[PressurePros 248]

Rod, you're forgetting that many people that read this board are, or may become, your customers. I know I meant contractors in my post. Taking it a step further.. Let's say you start a new organization (not saying that you are, but its been proposed). You just put yourself subjectively into the middle of a power struggle. There will be those that will believe this whole ordeal from initial badmouthing (loose definition) to the start of the new orginazation was one of two things. An exercise of ego, or a carefully articulated business ploy. Any new organization is going to be suspect at the very least.

In trying to form a unified front of contractor's, it is my belief that starting a new group will have the reverse effect. I stand by my original assessment. This is a lesson in sociology and the inherent power struggles that come from establishing hierchy. Don't doubt for a minute that this is what will be going on.. Instead of a place for all contractor's to gather and share information, it will be: Those that come to TGS and belong to its org and those that don't. Here you go, a completely unsolicited and possibly unwanted piece of advice.

Bad idea.

Just my $.02 as both a customer and faithful reader of this excellent board.

[John T 744]

To set the record straight here and I wish Rod and Beth would do the same and I don't want this to get out of control because I am in the know as much as they are. They were not blocked because of there post to the other BOD. There's a long history there and that is what most here do not understand. SO NO they did not get the boot or anything like that because of that one post.

This is the dirty laundry that I will not air publically because its unfair for both sides. I wish that can be respected here but I'm expecting it not to be.

To make this simple Beth/Rod and the PWNA have differences of Opinions that in the end there partnership together at this time was not working for each side. Thats it and to put blame without knowing the facts doesn't help matters.

Can we keep this thread clean or is it going to and up with the mudd slinging??

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

John,

I stated the truth, and I have emails and PM's to back what I said. We were locked out of the BBS over a post where advice we didn't agree with was given. I have the email from one BOD demanding an edit and two others right behind it from another BOD saying to lock us out immediately, regardless.

No mud slinging here...just the truth in fact. ;)

Ken,

TGS is not an org, and we don't have any intention of turning the BBS into an org. If an org forms somewhere, it will have to stand on its own, with its own leadership. Any org, current or future would be scrutinized...we are a nation that scrutinizes our leaders. It's how we function. Personally, I think competition can be a good thing, even better when those who compete can work together for the betterment. Thank you for sharing your opinions. We do find them valuable.

Personally I look forward to discussing what we would all like to see in a new org ... can we please get back on topic?

Beth