State of Affairs-Bulletin Boards

[Everett Abrams 501]

I wasn't going to do this and I have for the most part sworn off posting on Bulletin Boards anymore. I have spoken to many people over the past year who have really changed my perception of this "tool." There was time when these bulletin boards were for education and communication FOR ALL. Now there are so many flaws with this that it has detracted from the real professionals even participating like they once did. These bulletin boards have become nothing more than a hobby for those wishing to be in the middle of drama. Heck, for those of us who have been around for a while we know of folks who have gotten on here and didn't even own a business. They use to search the web for answers just to post like they knew what they were talking about. There is a problem when these outlets take on the culture that now exists.

What is that culture? It is one where many people simply will not post for fear of being intimidated, ridiculed, or degragated in some fashion. For one person to feel that way it is ashame. These forums should be for ANYONE to post without a fear of reaction. Many folks use these not to debate topics but more to fill a void that is lacking somewhere else, which I will not go futher. I also can not comment on the amount of times in the past year that other contractors or "OUR" customers have read some of these forums and commented on "mixed messages" and "unprofessional contractors." The general rule of thumb should be that we all post like we talking to one of our customers.

It is my opinion that the true professionals have left these boards and are busy running their businesses. It is my opinion that these bulletin boards now detract from the professional image that the industry needs and is searching for. I may be preaching to the crowd but this is how I feel and I will let others debate it. It is my opinion that the culture that exists on ALL of these bulletin boards needs some serious changes to culture and ethics or they should go away. This is not how it is on other industry Bulletin Boards I visit, why is it this way in the power washing industry?

[JFife 14]

Everett,

I'd be more interested in hearing "specifically" what comments/attitudes have turned you off. I've never been one that feels "mislead" by a person that pretends to be a contractor and is actually a homeowner looking for advice, etc. That is their personal issue with ethics, not mine, and I won't let it change my day in the least just because someone is disingenuous (sp). I'm sure that has happened, I'm sure people have created a fake problem with a product just to disparage that product, etc.

Keep in mind, many of us do this because we have fun doing it. Personally, I am booked up until Spring, so I am not doing this to enhance my biz, but nonetheless, I still find tips on here that are useful. I take the bad with the good, I don't like the idea of helping a newbie "jumpstart" their biz by making it easy for them, but some do. Some benefit from that. Many get/give leads from these forums.

I guess my point would be, that though these forums can be obnoxious, they create a lot of good. I have friends I've met on these forums that have stayed at my house, partnered up on jobs, gone to dinner, given/taken advice, given me big jobs, etc. A lot of us have aspects of these forums to thank for our success.

[Lou Beach 14]

The various BB have been nothing short of a valuable resource for me, a newbie in the PW industry.

At this exact moment I am being helped by people who I could have only met through the various BB's. I have called and talked to at least 20 people that I saw posting online and I have never felt misled or been given bad advice by any of them. And I have genuinely felt that they had my best interests at heart.

There is some sniping, some childish behavior, but that is a small price to pay for the valuable information and contacts that are available on these boards.

When I want to educate myself on something having to do with the PW industry, I can usually find the answer in a couple of keystrokes, saving me a lot of time and headaches in making decisions.

JMHO:)

[Everett Abrams 501]

Jon,

You and I have met on these bulletin boards and I have, and still do, enjoy your posts. I agree with you about fun as well. I would turn around and ask you if you think they are as fun as they once were? Have you not noticed a change over say the past five years that is not better?

You want specifics and what I will say is that the bulletin boards have become so populated with information that a "customer" can now do a search on deck cleaning or anything else and get a direct link to a specific forum. What I am saying is that I have had customers comment on the reading of these posts. This was not as common as it is today. I personally do not like my customers, or potential customers, reading some of the stuff that exists on these bulletin boards. I would say that the DIY bulletin board touches a wider variety of topics and people with more traffic and you do not see this culture on that bulletin board. My question is why is it on these bulletin boards at all? I actually posted here because this has more traffic than the other sites and I thought the answers would be interesting, if nothing else.

I still believe bulletin boards are tools and maybe I am being a bit nostalgic but I use to enjoy going to the bulletin boards and seeing what you, Littlefield, reed, Dave Olson, Greg Rentschler, Scott Stone, Jim Foley, and others posted. I do not see the same bulletin boards I once knew. Is it me or have they changed?

[JFife 14]

Everett,

The feeling is mutual.

Here is my take on what you've said: I'd say most of those guys you just mentioned were newer to the biz whenever they were posting a lot, and now are busier, know more, etc., and don't have as much to "take" from a bbs, so probably visit less. Now, you've got other guys that are promising but may only be a couple yrs. into biz, and have bright futures.

I am with you on the customers reading up on info. Thing is, I think that effects any kind of biz, not just pw. The internet has created easy access to any info you can think of, and pw is no different. However, there is no compensation for experience. I have customers all the time ask me if it is realistic that they could do the job themselves. I tell them, "no, you'll screw it up, it will look terrible, and you'll have to call me to fix it." They usually respond offended, and say, "well, it just doesn't seem that hard to spray on some chems, let it sit, wash it off, and apply some stain."

That is when I close. I ask them if they have any idea of what results they should expect. You apply stripper, wash, and it WILL look better. But is it good enough?? What if it looks 90% better, will it then look okay with stain?? What if you apply the stain, and the color isn't as rich as you like, but you've already done the rails. Do you go for two coats?? Apply a different color on top??

At that point the realize that the final result will be determined by each preceeding step, and without knowing what to expect from experience, they'll screw it up. Always works:)

It is agrevating to constantly be second-guessed. That is just that 10-20% of customers that are a pain, and you just have to live with it IMO. I'm in the middle of a disasterous job right now, due to obnoxious customers. But I gotta keep my head up, keep going, finish the job, and be nice along the way. My payback comes when they need something else, and won't get to use my service.

[Scott Stone 604]

I have to agree with Everett, although I would hoep that he would consider me a professional. I don't post nearly as much as I used to, and I know that there are many others that feel and do the same. He did an exceptional job of identifying the problem. The solution, in an open forum such as this, would be much harder to identify.

I do see that there is a cycle to the bulletin boards. The one the was the major source of information will gradually go by the wayside and not have the activity that it once did. It will usually last just a couple of years. The one exception that proves the rule is the Delco board. The drama and sniping are things that are going to occur no matter the situation. It is especially hard when there is such free access to the information.

Scott Stone

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Anyone ever read Future Shock by Alvin Toffler? Change is inevitable.

:lgbugeyes Pass the Excedrin.

You know, as I think back a few years, it occurs to me Everett has a point. Maybe a part of it, is the new folks who we see each year, and some folks, who don't need to be here like they used to. Some also go out of business, others just don't share like they used to. I do remember that the BBS's on the net overall, seemed a little different in attitude and to that end, culture.

Does anyone remember in school what it was like when you were in the youngest class? Then when you were a senior? After you moved on, it was strange coming back. I'm not saying this is the same thing, but it does have a feel to it, that reminds me of that.

BBS's in general are great tools. But they will only ever be as good, no matter how well built, as the community that embraces them and works to build them. BBS's are a product of the users and their input of data. In PC terms, the acronym GIGO comes to mind...Garbage In Garbage Out. What you put into any forum, is what you and others who will come after you, will take away from it. I'm going to risk staying on my soapbox here for a minute...

Folks, if you want a professional forum, full of helpful information to come to, it is up to you all to keep it this way. The TGS staff can't do it all themselves, it's your community. Help it grow and be what you all need it to be. If you have found these forums to be helpful, give back. Help others here.

I could go on, and I'm sure I'll post more at another point, but I really would love to hear more from others on this too. There is no reason at all we can't have this forum be like forums were 5 years ago as Everett recalls them. Only thing is, it takes the work of all of us to do it.

Beth

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Beth... Have read it, Good Book!

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Mathew, did you see the film Koyaanisqatsi (Life out of Balace)? You might like that too if you have not seen it.

Beth

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Thats an old film - Early 80's, I saw scenes from it in one of my college classes... ( Well not really old)

[PressurePros 248]

Here is how I read these boards, "if it doesn't apply, let it fly"

Customers learning how to do their own decks. Big Deal. I can also learn how to pour a concrete patio, build an addition and wire my entire house. The info is out there. I am not foolish enough to think by reading technique that I can accomplish those things to the same degree a professional can.

I enjoy reading the banter most of the time.

This is a cross section of personality not a canvas of automaton drivel .. If everyone adapted to a close lipped, avoid debate at all costs mentality while posting, this board, and all others like it would probably die. I've said this before and it may not make me real popular..If something someone types on a message board offends or intimidates you, you probably don't have the cajones neccessary to run a business.

Everett, the world changes for better or worse. I completely understand where you are coming from. But as it usually goes in any hierchy, you teach the young (newbies) and then you step aside and let them make mistakes. When they are ready, it is they whom will share the knowlege that has been shared with them. I'm kind of sad that you have sworn off the boards so to speak. I always learn new things after reading your posts. I hope you'll reconsider.

[Jimmy M 14]

KF, you almost always make a lot of sense.

[Mike Williamson 198]

I agree that there is a fair share of childishness and sniping, and I'm guilty of it too at times. For the most part, I enjoy these boards, I try to help where I can, learn a few things, and get along. I also agree with Everett, it doesn't belong here, and it damages the image of the industry in the eyes of those looking in from outside.

Everett: I hope you continue to post here and elsewhere...I've always enjoyed your posts, and you have given a lot of knowledge and assistance to those who need it.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

:lgangry:

I have already edited two posts for content. There is no need to bicker, or try to push each others buttons or call one another out here. Any two adults who have personal problems need to take them offline, and resolve them privately. We're trying to focus here on bettering the BBS and the industry, and our goal is to provide helpful, professional information and support through networking.

Thank you!

Beth

[Mike 64]

The one thing I would do if I had a "magic wand" is make all the contractor forums hidden from the general public, and only open to contractors, leaving the DIY forums open to everyone. Other then that I feel the BBS is a great tool for business and making it easier to network with others, not to mention make a few friends.

Nice to see you around Ev, hope all is well.

[Mike Williamson 198]

The one thing I would do if I had a "magic wand" is make all the contractor forums hidden from the general public, and only open to contractors, leaving the DIY forums open to everyone. I think some informations is made to easy to get by anyone who comes by and wants to get it.

Other then that I feel the BBS is a great tool for business and making it easier to network with others, not to mention make a few friends.

Nice to see you around Ev, hope all is well.

How do you know who is really a contractor, and who isn't? Anyone can log in and claim to be a pressure washer. The only way I can see would be to require contact information, and verify their company...But then you have the problem of those who haven't yet started their company and who are here to learn how.

I really don't care about those who are coming to the boards to find out how to DIY...They're not the ones who are going to call me anyway, at least not until after they screw it up (and if they get the proper information here, hopefully they won't). I stay too busy with the ones who DO call me to worry about the ones who don't, and who are DIY types. If they don't get the information here, they'll get it somewhere. There's plenty of DIY websites, Home Depot holding classes, etc.

[Mike Williamson 198]

:lgangry:

Thank you!

Beth

No, thank you. My apologies.

[BigPete 14]

Guys and dolls - I think some are missing the whole point of the thread

I don't think Everett meant that homeowners can find out how to do the work themselves by searching the web and finding their way to the forums. It's what they stumble across when doing a simple search for one of our websites or a topic like 'roof cleaning' or 'woodcare'.

The problem is all the silly arguments and those that pick on others for not doing things the way they think is the right way, or whatever. More people should use the Private messaging and email to make their arguments rather than posting it for all to see forever. We have all made posts that we wish we had not made. Just think about what you post about your competitors, customers, and even your own business - it could come back to bite you later.

[Mathew Johnson 123]

Pete,

I agree.....

I myself, as well as others (bbs members, forum leaders, BBS Board administrators) have gotten caught up in the moment and posted things that offered no value to the thread at hand and / or were personal attacks on someone..

Once the post hits the thread, anyone who is subscribed to that thread gets it via email. A while back I posted a response on the PWNA BBS and it was taken the wrong way by a fellow member... The response to my post was quite interesting and somewhat of a personal attack... The post / attack didn't really bother me, what did bother me is that my son and daughter both read the post before I did. Can I change the events that occured and may occur in the future? No, but I can change and control how I choose to respond to them.

I printed that post and I have it on my bulleton board next to my computer. It serves as a reminder for me when I post (which like Everette and others is less frequent than in the past)- I ask myself what value I am offering to the industry in the post I am typing.

I Will I respond to that post that is tacked to the wall in my office. Doing so on the BBS will offer no value to the BBS or the industry; But the issue will be addressed in a profesional manner. I will do it in a manner that my kids will see the value of professional communication.

How I and others post, reflects and represents hot we deal with and communicate with our customers and other customers in the industry. After all, they do also read the BBS. This board gets hits when one does a simple google search.

We want to be viewed as a professional industry... Then we should always communicate in a professional manner. I, like others, have made the mistake of typing without thinking.... And I can't change the past, I can only learn from it...

I feel Everette is very accurate in his post. I don't feel that it is about having broad shoulders or a huge set cajones to not let different post offend you... If a post is offensive to others, should it be here? It is about why Beth and Rod provide the BBS service.... To offer value to the industry and promote the industry as a profession that strives to help contractors.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

At times it can be a real challenge managing this BBS. All the Forum Leaders here are volunteers with only as much time to offer, as their busy schedules will allow. We don't get to each and every thread on here, and they don't either.

There are times a post gets missed that should get caught and dealt with. For that, I apologize. If the professionalism on this BBS has slipped at all, I am sorry for that and believe me it will be addressed. There are times I get caught up myself in threads. It's not easy. I believe a good step for anyone online is to embrace professionalism and live it. By living it and embodying it we will emulate it. That's not as easy as it sounds, when you are sore, tired, and running low on energy. When you have a day where a piece of equipment goes out and throws your schedule out the window, when an employee doesn't show up, when you are working long days and weekends, it adds up. It takes a toll and makes it hard to remain professional.

I have thought about this all afternoon. Everett's post speaks volumes. I've also spent quite a bit of time on the telephone, with various people whom I respect. This BBS could be better than it is. Continuous improvement is important in our personal lives, our businesses and in our communities. I miss the posts from some of the folks who have not been around in a while, and I echo Everett's sentiment that it would be nice to see them return.

Some of the folks I spoke to today, made positive suggestions to help improve the community here, and I want to say thank you - you know who you are. Anyone who wants to help make this BBS a better community than it is now, let me know. Member participation is always encouraged here. Maybe I have not made that clear enough, but it is.

Beth

[newlook 265]

I don't know the depth of the industry history as some of the veterans out there do so I really can't feel the pulse that prompted Everett to start this thread.

I have not been on this bbs as much due to the fact that I have been super busy running my business. When I do "pop up" every once in a while, I sincerely try to offer and share things that have worked for my company. By doing this offers a chance for someone else to advance and better their services....plain and simple.

As far as the arguing/fussing that goes on here and probably other BBS's...I just stay clear of it. I really don't have time for it to be honest.

I do agree with Everett that there are probably folks on this bbs and others that do alot of talking and hype up what they can do and how much they make. I just figure that one day they will "hop~scotch" over to another industry and that will be the last of them.

I have spoken to several veterans in the industry (both PWNA members and non PWNA members) and one or two of them have physically seen the numbers that we are working with out here....I say this not to boast but to solitify my position on this subject.

For me, this bbs plays a very important part of where I would like to take my business tomorrow.

[squirtgun 122]

I wasn't going to do this and I have for the most part sworn off posting on Bulletin Boards anymore. I have spoken to many people over the past year who have really changed my perception of this "tool." There was time when these bulletin boards were for education and communication FOR ALL. Now there are so many flaws with this that it has detracted from the real professionals even participating like they once did. These bulletin boards have become nothing more than a hobby for those wishing to be in the middle of drama. Heck, for those of us who have been around for a while we know of folks who have gotten on here and didn't even own a business. They use to search the web for answers just to post like they knew what they were talking about. There is a problem when these outlets take on the culture that now exists.

What is that culture? It is one where many people simply will not post for fear of being intimidated, ridiculed, or degragated in some fashion. For one person to feel that way it is ashame. These forums should be for ANYONE to post without a fear of reaction. Many folks use these not to debate topics but more to fill a void that is lacking somewhere else, which I will not go futher. I also can not comment on the amount of times in the past year that other contractors or "OUR" customers have read some of these forums and commented on "mixed messages" and "unprofessional contractors." The general rule of thumb should be that we all post like we talking to one of our customers.

It is my opinion that the true professionals have left these boards and are busy running their businesses. It is my opinion that these bulletin boards now detract from the professional image that the industry needs and is searching for. I may be preaching to the crowd but this is how I feel and I will let others debate it. It is my opinion that the culture that exists on ALL of these bulletin boards needs some serious changes to culture and ethics or they should go away. This is not how it is on other industry Bulletin Boards I visit, why is it this way in the power washing industry?

Well thanks Everett,now tell us how you really feel.

[Jeff 232]

I'm new to this BBS and I visit another one often and I was for sometime argueing quite abit on that one and it has gotten old to me and I promised myself not to anymore and I wont. I like to learn on these BBS's and help when I can.

I have to say the week Ive been on this BBS, Ive learned alot and the volume of people & infomation is great!!!! These boards are such a great resource. Before I ever found these boards, I was doing things the hard or wrong way, now I have a question, stupid or not I can get an informed answer. The BS is useless, but these bbs's arent. Thanks for a great board and all the knowledge that can be learned here!!!!

[Everett Abrams 501]

I believe there are a lot of great responses in this thread. I was merely trying to express my thoughts to a community that I care about. Big Pete was accurate in relaying my thoughts as was Matt Johnson. I think we do a disservice to ourselves as an industry and individuals when we allow the culture that I speak of to exist. I speak out because I would like to see it change. Many of the folks I speak of are still in the industry they just don't post anymore and I believe it has as much to do with the culture as it does a cycle change. I know people find other interests and move on but I feel we as a community could do a better job, that's all. I have spoken to many of the folks here and on other bb's on the phone, not just on a bbs. I can't say I do not like anyone and I am sure that could be said by many of you. My point being, that while we all won't always get along at times you would think that many of just can't stand others. I believe this to be rare and in fact think that without the internet and in person face-to-face many of us would be very good friends. Maybe I am wishing for something that can not, and will not exist. I wish that all of us and our customers would be able to come to these bulletin boards and say "Wow, there is alot more to this than I realized. These contractors seem to take their business very seriously and professional. I think I will call one in my area." As it is now I do not think they would get that impression.

I also want to restate that it isn't THIS bulletin board, we all see it on the others as well. I just posted it here because of traffic and the variety of people here. I am glad there are bulletin boards for people to find information and communicate on. I am not so sure though that we haven't crossed a line where the negatives are catching up with the positives. Nothing wrong with wanting to better such a valuable tool by voicing my opinion than to sit back as I have and not say anything, understand this is my perception and just wanted to share. Thank you all for your comments and thoughts, this has become a very good thread.

[newlook 265]

I respect everyones position ~ I may agree or not agree with it, but do respect it.

Maybe I am just out of the loop of things but I don't see the need to change a culture that every once in a while pops up on a BBS radar screen.

There may be more problems on other BBS's as Everett mentioned but I do not visit them nor am I a member of them. I focus on this BBS because first and foremost the Administrators do a outstanding job policing it and managing it.

As far as this BBS is concerned....I vot that "no shakedown cruise" needed.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

A simple philosophy to use is one that is derived in the basic essence of community support and growth:

Keep others in mind before you.

We are all here for our own reasons but those reasons should never be for negative pursuits. These as we have seen, only create negativity in the community and as proved by so many posters who have made it clear that they do not want any part of that, it is something that is the responsibility of each of us to make sure we are representing ourselves in the best image possible.

Your character and professionalism imparted in each post contributed becomes a reflection of the community as a whole. Let us reflect the best of ourselves here. Many are watching.

Thank you Everett for joining us, we have missed your presence. You may have not been talking about TGS but in light of your recent posts, we feel we would be missing out if we didn't look at this also as an opportunity to better our community.

Thank you in advance for all who are a part of TGS and are willing to help make it one of the great BBS's for all to benefit from.

Rod~