Honest debate Iraq

[Jeff 232]

I'm just wondering what everybody's opinion is on the Iraq war. You can't trust our politicians to really be honest when debating the war and I'd just like to know what others think about it. Now most know that I'm liberal in my thinking. With that said I do and always have believed in a strong military, VERY strong. I believed in the war in Afghanistan.

On the Iraq war I never believed it was a good idea and I never really believed that George Bush was going to Iraq for terrorism & 9/11. I know many will say that I'm a GWBush hater but besides that whats your feelings on Iraq

I always thought GW Bush was going to war with Iraq even before 9/11, he didnt like Saddam since Saddam tried to put a hit on GBush Sr.

Do you think the entire war or some of it has been handled wrong, should we have ever gone, should we stay the course for unlimited time, should we have a date in mind to start pulling troops. should we institute a draft so our stressed military gets a break, should we send a couple hundred thousand more troops and squash the insurgency and bring Iraq back to order

I personally think we never should of gone. We had Saddam contained and he kept Iran in check, now Iran doesnt give a crap what anyone one says and Europe is a bunch of s--- heads and will never support us.

I'm thinking back the troops back to outer areas and see what happens if Iraq seperates so be it. Im thinking we should get our troops out within the next 2 years and only leave a small amount of troops to try to watch out over our interests

I hate the thought that we are fighting a losing battle for a country that is fighting its self and will end up hating us anyway.

As for the middle east, just about all of it is starting to hate us the U S. Hell I'd like to nuke them all right about now and take all the oil. I think Muslims in that area are going to always hate us and its going to get worse.

What do you think, I'm not trying to start a big fight I'm just trying to see what others think other than what you hear or read in the news

I want our mititary that is doing tour after tour home, either get out completly or draft others to fight.

God Bless Our Troops & The USA

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

Simply put...I don't believe the media. I know we are being mislead. That is all I need to say on this. Others have their views and thoughts to be heard. BUT - Have you heard the saying "we have seen the enemy, the enemy is us"? Consider.

Rod!~

[James 625]

OIL plus Profits= BUSH. The Middle East is out of control with Israel fighting Hezbollha now.Civil war breaking out in Iraq. Sryria and Iran on the sidelines feeding the frenzy. Alaska pipeline down, and gas prices over $4.00 a gallon ??

[Chappy 138]

Isreal has always been fighting Hezbollah, along with every one else who ATTACKS THEM FIRST!!! the middle east has always been a powder keg and always will be. The countries that control the oil will have the ability to break off supply anytime.

What GW Bush is trying to do is bring some sense of normal government to the arabs who are used to hundreds of years of dictatorships. a normal govmt, who is part of the WORLD COMMUNITY will not be so quick to screw everyone by shutting off the oil supply. and disrupting commerce for everyone.

We need to be reminded that EXXON could have made $15 billion in profits if it hadnt put $5 billion back into exploration and development.

I agree that we are being misled by the media and by the government. Right wingers will only beleive that the media lies, left wingers will only beleive that the government lies, (With a little bit of Bush hatred to solidify that belief.)

But Bush did not lie. Read the text of what he said in his reasons for going to war.

Do you really think that if we werent in Iraq, the situation would be any different with Iran, Isreal, Korea or any of the other hot spots in the world?

Chaos will always reign, and peace will always be a dream until the end of the world.

[Keth 15]

I agree with you 100% Jeff. Some may say I am not patriotic when I say I don't support the president but I consider myself a great patriot when I can think for myself and realize that the best thing we can do as Americans is insist that the young boys who we are sending to die every day in Iraq come home as soon as possible.

We have now killed about 30k innocent Iraqi women and children trying to quash this uprising. Some say up to 100k due to death by disease and malnourishment due to the war. Think of how many people lost a son or daughter over there who will have a deep hatred of us for the rest of their lives. No amount of soldiers are going to fix this problem and we now stand in the middle of a vicious civil war that we created.

I think this current administration will go down in history as the worst ever.

[R L S 14]

Very well put Mr. Chapman I must agree.

No matter what peoples stance is on this issue I must emphasize that we as a country must always support our troops! I beat the **** outta a guy a couple weekends back because he said that "anyone who joins the military is a fool and deserves whatever happens to them". Did he stop and think that those soldiers gave him the right to say that. What ignorance. I think he got what he deserved.

[Jeff 232]

See I agree with everybody some what. Jon is right on a lot of what he says. I question that is it our job to tell other countries to democratize and why do we think we can democratize a country or a region, especially one thats been killing each others for centuries. Bush before 911 said that he doesnt believe in nation building and now thats what we are TRYING to do.

I don't want to Bush bash the reason I asked some of this is to get an idea what everyone thinking

Do we stay a year, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10 year etc with over 100K in troops or should we just stay on the out skirts and let them the Arabs work it out

Also should a draft be instituted, our troops are getting burnt out, they have to be and should all Ameirans share in the fighting in Iraq just not the few hundred thousand that rotate back in & out

As for Iran I wish before we took out Saddam we gave him weapons & the green light to go back into Iran & fight & kill them all.

I absolutly hate religious extremist and I fear we are adding to their ranks by the thousands every week. I say religious extremist. What I mean is Extremist muslims that hate us. We are going to have to fight muslims in a world war some day I fear or should we just let them kill each other

One other thing why is all the other countries in the world saying the Jews should do a cease fire when Hezbulla is firing rockets too. Screw lebanon let the Jews flatten it and then let them go after Iran before they get Nukes

I'd really like a peaceful world which I know will never happen but it just seems like its just getting so bad

Should we pull troops & when ?

[HotShot 34]

I think we've been too soft in the war with Iraq, thus putting our soldiers in harms way. These poor soldiers are being scrutinized for every bullet they fire. War is hell, people die--it sucks. But we're in it, so we need to bring it.

I think that we need to stay the course until our job is finished. Clinton bailed out of every conflict that he got into, and now we're paying for it. All it did was empower these wackos and make them think that we are a bunch of limp wristed sissies. In listening to some of you guys, maybe they're right, maybe we don't have the stomach for victory. It's really pretty sad.

Of course we all want our troops home, but more than wanting them home, I want them to win!!!! I want our country to win.

[EnviroClean 15]

TGS 4 Life

[Jeff 232]

To win we have to have a winning force & strategy, we have neither. If we are to stay and win, why don't we do what G Bush Sr did, send 500K troops. We have proven we can't win with 135,000 troops.

I want to win also but can we with the strategy & troops numbers we have?

If we are not going to have a winning strategy lets get out with in the next couple years

I just hate seeing our boys & girls dying for a group of people that hate us.

Only time will tell and I see it as a 50/50 chance that we win or leave, I just dont know whats right to do

[Don L 14]

Jeff,

I understand your thought's about the welfare of our troops,and respect them.I do want to adress somthing before I continue.

I am not comparing the 2 different wars per say(reasons for...),but remember the dead ,say at Omaha beach,I am writing without checking fig's,but I believe that somewhere around 3000 soldiers died in that assault,in a matter of hours.Perspective,not justification,perspective.The "drive by media"has been possesed with informing us of the running tally of deaths.I believe this is subversive,and a direct attack against our Commander in Chief,and the entire war effort,American victory.It has affected the masses outlook.

That being said...

Let us revisit the WMD question.

In our great country,we have allowed a cancer grow,an enemy camp who'se main goal ,is to deprive our country of our soverinty.Like any tumor,it impedes uor ability to fully act accordingly.Whether it is real pressure,or simply percieved pressure,it has an effect.The cancer I refer to is the UN.

Sadam,because of UN posturing,and our playing nicely along,removed the wepons.In this,I have no doubt.

"true excellence is to plan secretly,to move surreptitiously(Sun Tzu."The Art of War")The interferance of the UN,destroyed that option for America.In light of this ,President Bush believed in attacking and pressed forward,in spite of the disadvantage.You know the story.

As seen by the bolstering of the savage Islamisist,by the 9/11 attacks,you have to consider the abject cowardice of the previos "administration".I am sure you are aware of the initial attack on the trade towers,the embassy attacks,the attack on the U.S.S Cole.ALL blatent acts of war ,that should have been met with withering military attacks upon those responsible.Never happened.

The "Islamo-facists" are savages,possed by deception,and they want you dead.They want everything that you recognize as life eradicated.Purified.

I don't believe this is an arguable point.

By taking the fight to them,President Bush,did something that I believe,very few of us could,or would do.Contrary to many,He is not stupid ,or an evil man.He understood fully ,the responsibility he was taking on.

Some one had to stand against their savagery,who else but this beloved America?

The fight is not just about Iraq.It was a starting point,an anchor point,to methodically destroy the strength of radical Islam.Make no mistake,if we stand down,the western world is in grave danger.Where you live,where I live....The Islamic savages need to be broken,beyond repair.I speak of the Islam who has repeatedly attacked America.There must be NO quater given.

I will never bow to an Imam.It began in Afganastan,continued in Iraq,and will continue in Iran,S.Korea...until it's over,it's not over.My .02 cnts.

As long as the Islamo facists seek our destruction,our liberty is bound.

"Give me liberty,or give me death..."

Let me know your thoughts.Good topic.Sorry about my spelling.

[HotShot 34]

That's beautiful Don.....well put...:)

I would also like to say to Jeff, I appreciate the civil discussion. I think that you are trying to be objective. I don't think this discussion will go anywhere though because you and others listen to what you may hear on the news and run with that. Some of us "conservative" type don't. We have a whole different perspective. For instance, you said that we've proven that we can't win with 135K troops....I totally disagree, we have kicked some serious butt over there. Saddam, his demonic sons most of his top guys, are all either captured or killed. The soldiers over there see it different than you do also, I get emails from higher ranks and they are not asking for more troops, they don't need them. I believe that it's time for the iraqis to step up to the plate. We have done a moral thing by giving them their chance for freedom, and they need to run with it.

Our side probably isn't going to convince your side, and your side probably isn't going to convince our side....hope we can all just keep it civil.

[Jeff 232]

Conservative or liberal, I too know people over there and they are tired. Tired of going to one area and putting down the enemy, then going to another area and doing the same only to have to go back to the 1st area and its out of control again,. Thats why I & others say there isnt enough troops

Tell you the truth if I thought we had enough troops and were making great progress I wouldnt question it. But I just dont think there is enough troops to do eveything that needs to be done.

Like I said I hate the muslim nuts and I would be for a war in the middle east and I'd say an all out war at that, but we pull from afganastan to go to Iraq and we havent cured the ill at all anywhere andwe arent going to do it with 135K troops

It would be political suicide to start a draft, but thats whats needed, we are already showing weakness to the enemy and it started with poor planning.

I'd like to nuke a few places and tell the rest of the world to screw, but we cant and we wouldnt because that would make us look like monsters

I wish I was as extreme as our enemy, Id be blowing things up already and enjoying it.

So many say stay the course, Im 50/50 just like a liberal, does anyone say add troops?

Id like to go burn a few Iranian flags in Tehran and as I'm running down the street for my life have an F-18 swoop in and wipe out all the are chasing me. Just day dreaming

Jeff

[HotShot 34]

:) I guess we do agree on a lot.......

[Adrian 155]

I love my xjet

I love my Deckster

I LOVE MY COUNTRY

Everyone has great points in my opinion on both sides.

I support our troops and am greatful for them. I do wish they were close to coming home, but, there will be us military bases over there for decades to come.......just like Viet Nam.

I support our President's (slow moving) processes to some degree.

The truth of the matter is that he could have just really gone full scale defcon, apocalyptic, since we DO have nukes (WMD) and taken out the "THREAT".

I actually respect the reserve he has shown in not taking them to school!!!

At least we are better for that. He has also shown some great cahounas by keeping his hand off of the "switch".

..........as I reflect on Charleton Heston's famous last words on the planet of the apes.

[Don L 14]

Hey Jeff,

Concerning troop #'s,I am not qualified to comment about that detail,and frankly,I don't think you are either.No offense intended.

I believe that America has won a resounding victory in Afgahnastan.The Taliban is hurtin deeply.Bin Laden is supposedly still loose,but could be dead.

I am responding to your statement saying we "pulled out "of Afganisthan.I may be wrong,but,we simply sent soldiers to carry on the attack to Iraq,and left select forces in Afg.

Concerning your assertion that the troops are tired...wouldn't you be? I would.Since when does being tired impact your duty. Whether it is providing for your family,fullfilling your job demand's,raising your children...etc.Do what the mission requires.I am not there.I am too old,thats what the recuiter told me.In these trying times,we are demanded of more than the usual.

This concept has not dawned upon the masses in our country.They don't seem to realize that we are at WAR!!! There has been NO rationing,NO more attack's on American soil since 9/11. I can only repeate myself...being "tired" is only a circumstance.Will you allow a circumstance to determine victory,in a life or death battle.I am not just referring to the battle field,(I by no means intend to compare the battle that our brave troops are involved in to our daily challenges,but there exists a paralell.)?Yeah,gas is out the a**.BIG F******DEAL!Jeff,I can't tell you how pleased I am that you opened this topic.

I am going to pass on something that I saw on a local bbs.

I don't want anybody getting their panties all twisted about this..but I admit ...I blew snot out of my nose.

"Arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics...you won,but your are still retarded.I am thankful that is not going on here.Proffessional discussion...that's how men get it done.No offence ladies.

[Don L 14]

P.S.

Jeff,may I ask how old you are?

[Mike Williamson 198]

Wow, only 16 replies in an hour? LOL!!

[Mike Williamson 198]

Simply put...I don't believe the media. I know we are being mislead. That is all I need to say on this. Others have their views and thoughts to be heard. BUT - Have you heard the saying "we have seen the enemy, the enemy is us"? Consider.

Rod!~

In this day of readily available news from so many sources, don't you think just ONE news outlet would have broken ranks and reported the truth?

[Don L 14]

Mike ,

I am not sure.

You know they are all playr's.Even my fav,Fox ,they are playrs's.It is ,in my opionin,inevitable.The simplest thing you could do to screw up something worth while,is add more humans,and start manufacturing rules.That is what you have with our society,or our culture. This is not directly referring to biz,but could apply,I think.The world is a LIAR.Repeate...LIAR!

Peace out.

[Russ Spence 76]

OOOO, I'd voice my true opinion but one more Infraction and I'm banned. I'll just say this...When I was serving over in the Gulf in 91-92 I knew it was the beginning of what would be a 20-25 year conflict it was in the air, I slept with one eye open even around our host "friendly" arabian counterparts. It actually goes back way further than that, anyone remember the hostage situation in 1980 and an old peanut farmer? Bush had to send troops...remeber he rigged the election.

i guess this answers my question you are still posting ,how long are you on parole ,here is your friend for life

[Mike Williamson 198]

It would be political suicide to start a draft, but thats whats needed, we are already showing weakness to the enemy and it started with poor planning.

I'd like to nuke a few places and tell the rest of the world to screw, but we cant and we wouldnt because that would make us look like monsters

So many say stay the course, Im 50/50 just like a liberal, does anyone say add troops?

Jeff

Nope, no more troops needed, and certainly not a draft. The military isn't asking and doesn't want a draft. The last thing a commander wants is a bunch of troops who aren't there voluntarily out of their sense of duty to serve their nation.

We're doing fine...the problem is in this culture, we want immediate results...we want this over two years ago...but I don't see this being over for 20 years...not necessarily in Iraq, but everywhere. Bush pointed that out from the beginning...this will be a LONG battle.

[HotShot 34]

good point Mike....

[JBenson 14]

My opinion, Whatever Bush used to justify us going there to get saddam or the war on terrorism or whatever, saddam had to go, he wasnt contained. The amount of money we would spend to monitor Saddams air space and all his military is not cheap. That is not being contained, that is babysitting. You dont have to babysit if there is no baby. Anybody ever see the aircraft that we recovered that were burried underground covered in plastic? Whatever the reason, it was required. I was in the military for afghanistan (however you spell it) and Iraq both. Our planes were first in both places dropping a hair over 80% of all gps guided bombs. So I am a little bias to the situation. As far as the media, I sat on my couch with my wife and watched the planes that i was with take off to go to the desert on the news. We didnt leave until weeks later. Believe what the news says and your end up with good discussion. Anyway, sorry for ranting but this is a hell of a discussion for me and many others.

[Beth n Rod 1,279]

OOOO, I'd voice my true opinion but one more Infraction and I'm banned.

So long as you aren't breaking the rules, you won't get into trouble or get an infraction. Is it really so hard to be respectful and professional? I just don't see the need to bash, flame, call names, or use profane language to make a point. It is disrespectful of others who come here and look forward to avoiding those things, so yes we have rules and we do follow them. Other boards may not care as much about the level of professionalism online as we do, and that is up to them. Here, we care about it.

Beth

p.s. By the way, others can't tell if you have an infraction or not. The person who has one can see it, and the Moderation Staff can see it, but basically if you share with the community that you have one that is up to you. Why you would want to advertise to everyone that you have broken a rule and been reprimanded is beyond me, since otherwise no one would have known. It doesn't exactly make you look professional in my opinion when you fly that flag so to speak.

[Celeste 341]

Back to the topic at hand - I wish they'd all settle down and we can get everyone back home. My oldest has recently enlisted in the Air Force and I really don't want to see her sent into harm's way - anywhere.

Celeste