Jump to content


Popular Content

Showing most liked content since 03/01/2004 in all areas

  1. 4 points
    We still go door to door and hang door hangers. This is the first marketing we ever did and although we have grown from other sources we refuse to quit what work for us in the beginning. "Never forget where you come from" It is not easy but in my opinion it is a great source for new business! Internet is an excellent choice as well! We have NOT successful with EDDM, and for that reason have discontinued it. If you don't mind doing a little extra work take a look at sendjim, https://sendjim.io/home they have some great marketing ideas at affordable pricing.
  2. 4 points

    Cedar shake strip and stain pctures

    Just a couple of pics of a project I am working on, this was some really old shakes that needed two fat coats of amber. you can see on the front where i left off on the second coat.
  3. 4 points

    Ego vs. Giving Back

    Support local charities and help people in your community who need it. Keep it between you, them, and God.
  4. 4 points

    Ego vs. Giving Back

    There is no drawback from doing the right thing. The drawbacks come from when people want to do the right thing for the wrong reason. Personally I think it goes against what god wants people to do to brag about how you donate or help out a service organization and expect to get positive exposure or a tax credit. Do it because you want to and be done with it. If you recieve a donation letter from them so be it but don't go looking for it.
  5. 3 points

    Lessons Learned in 2018

    My only "guarantee" is to turn up & do my best (results as explained)
  6. 3 points
    Beth n Rod

    Lessons Learned in 2018

    I find that customers like you described are often ones that have been either taken by another contractor or were given unreasonable expectations. I have won these types over by setting the expectations and when possible over delivering. Then there are ones that just can't be pleased no matter what and they expect miracles. These often have conditions that can't be reversed and likely induced by either the homeowner/diyer or a hack. Some people are so difficult that I will intentionally bid it high to deter their acceptance but in the case they become desparate set a very low expectation. In the case of excessive questions, I find it that they are insecure and often a bit squirrelley to begin with. I try to be patient but sometimes find I have to control the narrative and leave them with either yes or no responses because they don't understand aspects about the project/scope/technology/chemistry etc. This helps them to find a path to a decision but I often have to leave a comfort line at the end, something to the effect of....if you have any further questions you can call me at... Guarantees. What is to guarantee in our line of work? That the dirt will come off? That the results will last 'X' years? I offer none where this is concerned even if I am the first one on the job because there are things I have no control over. I don't make the sealers, chemicals, stains etc. that are being applied. I didn't get the substrate dirty and have no idea of what it has been subject to and no way to tell until AFTER the work begins to reveal what was hidden or obstructed/disguised. What are your thoughts on Guarantees? Rod
  7. 3 points
    New or return customers? If new customers, how did they hear about you? Referral? You'll likely have several different figures depending upon how they got your info. New customers who just found me online I'm about 40%, but that's only because I try and pre-qualify them before ever considering a site visit. I get a description from them over the phone or email, then I'll provide a brief explanation of the service I'm proposing as well as a price range. I let them know if the price range sounds reasonable to them, then we could meet to discuss & finalize the details. New customers who were referred to me from someone I've serviced in the past would be about 65%. Return customers about 90-95% When I first started my own biz in 1998, I thought I was killing it because I got most of the jobs I went and bid on. Come to find out it was only because I was offering my services way too cheap, (that's typically because many of us don't truly understand our total operating costs when starting a business). Although situations vary, I'd say that if you're closing % is much more than 50% from people who don't know you and just found your info online or in print, then you need to reevaluate your pricing.
  8. 3 points
    We use both M5 X-Jet for House washing and we use a 12 volt 7gpm Fatboy or Shureflow Pump for Roofcleaning. We like the X-jet because you can reach upwards of 3 stories. You can apply chemical without ladders and can also clean most vertical surfaces without ladders. The roof setup gets the right chemical on the roof surface at low pressure.
  9. 3 points
    mike movila

    Real Estate Agents

    I also have done quiet a bit of work for Real Estate agents in my area. What has worked for me personally is developing a good working relationship with those top sales agents and reward them with small gifts after a few jobs that goes a long way especially when you do excellent work.
  10. 3 points
    Beth n Rod

    Newbie question

    I will expound on what Guy was saying. There is a sliding scale that many contractor use towards pricing and it is representative of the time, labor and materials it takes to complete a job. Higher price/sqft for smaller jobs and a reductively lower price/sqft as the job gets bigger. ie; 1.00/sqft - up to 200 sqsft. .75/sqft - up to 500sqft. .50/sqft - up to 1000sqft.....etc. Find out what it takes to do jobs of various types and look into your costs. How much fuel does your machine consume in an hour? Factor that into the price. What is your travel distance and factor costs for ass time in the vehicle for each person and a service area radius to base your rates on. Compute for larger distances as an additional charge upon the regular area. What are your overhead costs you have to meet each month? Divide that total by the number of days you work to come up with a minimum per day you need to meet those expenses and learn to factor that into your hourly costs overall. Many companies here have stated that they have certain minimums they will need to make before accepting any job. That is another thing to consider but beware, it is also market driven and demographically sensitive. You can price yourself out of business if your area of business can't support your costs if they are too high. Let me know if you have any questions... Rod
  11. 3 points
    We used to do Ice Damn removal as well. Cold work and a bit treacherous in the snow of yards you have not been on before and are trying to find good footing for ladders. God I hate getting snow down the back of my jacket... Rod
  12. 3 points
    Thad, Nonsense. You and many others not mentioned in my post deserve credit. Going back in time, if I can remember, Mark Smith, Ken Fenner, Greg R., Jim B., Diamond Jim Foley, and others used this website and the old Delco board to get the wood restoration business recognised by the general public. It helped my small business and many others. So take a bow!
  13. 3 points
    Beth n Rod

    Show off your summer deck!

    Okay I have a few.....
  14. 3 points

    For those who do staining in Virginia

    Va is actually very fair about the issue. On contracting work when they pull a permit for a job they put your contractors licence number in the system and if it pops as inactive,completely fraudulent, or registered to someone else they make the contractor obtain a valid licence before they will sign off on the work.
  15. 3 points
    Mike Hughes

    Hi there

    The big 4-0 was this past September. I spent the morning of my 40th birthday in the Emergency Room with a kidney stone. That went away after some convincing, and all is well. My boys are 14 and 9 now........which is hard to believe. I stopped pressure washing in 2005 and switched to the HVAC business. I am in sales of residential HVAC and doing very well. For a couple of years I was a technician as well, but I enjoy sales more. Jim, I recognize your photo.......I hope all is well with you.
  16. 3 points
    Doing it for nothing is something I won't do. You are performing on someone else's property and if you aren't charging for it and it is not disclosed in a proposal, bid or estimate, you are liable for any and all damages that result. Hourly rates are for employee's and lawyers. Even plumbers and electricians don't give hourly anymore. They charge by the service. We don't give out an 'hourly' rate either. Due to the varying factors many projects will have, there is no way to really put an hourly rate on it considering there is so much more that go into costs. Rod
  17. 3 points
    Tim , I take care of a lot of furniture . Teak , cedar , pt, redwood, something that begins with a J. All furniture that ends up with people like us has gotten out of control and sticky . Over application of product is the biggest issue. So knowing what you put on and how to care for the finish is the biggest issue with outdoor furniture and when to start over again. Last year I did about 20 pieces of teak at the end of the year as a trial for he next 20 pieces in spring ( I think more). The tables could not be extended and the chairs couldn't be sat on when the temps hit 90. What a freaking mess but they new it . It went beyond there painter, local hardware store , paint store, handy man, advice from the product they put on,. The estate manager went to a dinner at one of my clients and ate / sat on the furniture I have cared for the last ten years. What a great new client I have and estate to work on . All because of something that couldn't be sat on ! Who wood of thunk ? With furniture less is best.... What ever is used don't over apply . Wipe off anything that doesn't sink in in 30 minutes . Don't allow much on the undersides at all . Just enhance the wood. With furniture the first finish and when to do the second finish is the trickiest . You cannot treat outside furniture like inside furniture.
  18. 3 points
    Beth n Rod

    Rock Solid and Restore

    If the coating is not permeable.....RUN. Beth
  19. 3 points
    I like forums better because there is much less politics and more networking and civil discussion by contrast. Rod
  20. 3 points
    Douglas Hicks

    Ego vs. Giving Back

    I have done work at a reduced rate for the Salvation Army, a women's shelter, and a Food Bank. Neither group cares who you are or what you do. Their only concern is if you need help. But if I am told that I owe a freebie, if they tell me I can take a tax deduction, if they pull the guilt trip, we are done. The other thing, is I do not help for free advertising or other b/s. I help because I like the org or their goals.
  21. 3 points
    The fishing part is not important. The being together is the important part. Just as important, is his little friends who do not have a good father figure in their lives. You have a chance to make a real difference in some kids life. Don't screw it up.
  22. 3 points
    Someone hook me up with a frubal, thanks.
  23. 3 points
    Frubals Have you ever heard the phrase 'instant karma'? Frubals (sometimes known as 'reputation') are are a very close equivalent. Let's say, for example, you see a post that you really like. You can validate that person by clicking on the little square green icon (if using The Grime Scene skin) or the scale icon (if using TGS Lite skin) that appears in that post. (It's toward the right-hand side, up top). A pop-up message will come up, asking what you thought of the post and will have a blank space where you can write your thoughts on that post. The other member will have it noted in their "User CP" that someone thought that that post was worth "frubals", and if you enclosed a note, that will appear next to the notation. Sending Frubals with a note is also a nice way to say thank you to someone who helped you. In your posts you will notice little squares under your user name. Mouse over them, and it will give you a message based upon your number of frubals. This changes as you get to new levels. There are many terms used on the forums that denote giving someone frubals. Among them are "frubaling a post," "frubalizing someone," and "fruballed." Here are some configuration numbers for you: Register Date Factor: For every 365 number of days, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power. Post Count Factor: For every 100 number of posts, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power. Reputation Point Factor: For every 100 points of reputation, users gain 1 point of reputation-altering power. Minimum Post Count: How many posts must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 10 Minimum Reputation Count: How much reputation must a user have before his reputation hits count on others? 10 Daily Reputation Clicks Limit: How many reputation clicks can a user give over each 24 hour period? Administrators are exempt from this limit. 15 Reputation User Spread: How many different users must you give reputation to before you can hit the same person again? (Administrators are exempt from this limit.) 5
  24. 2 points
    Hi all New to the forum I joined specifically because of COVID 19. I am building a 120k furniture warehouse in nor cal, I am looking for tips to keep my crew members safe. Currently we are staggering shifts so everyone is not in our job trailer at the same time and in our warehouse we are practicing social distancing. We are spraying bleach on all tools, gang boxes, entrances etc. I am reaching out to the cleaning pros for any helpful tips and ideas. Thanks in advance. Steve
  25. 2 points

    Downstream nozzle has pressure?

    So got the new injector installed and it works great! So I looked at the old injector and somehow the screw in orfice? was missing. I didn’t realize it when I took it apart because I’ve never had one before. Thank you for the help
  26. 2 points
    Marshall Brown


    I hired a professional to do my work.
  27. 2 points
    mike movila

    Lessons Learned in 2018

    Wow those are some wonderful lessons could not agree with you guys more. As far far guarantees I do not offer because As Rod implied there are those customers who will never be satisfied no matter how hard you try to please them. I always vouch to do the best job possible and yield the best results. I wish every one a prosperous 2019. Happy Spraying Mike
  28. 2 points

    Lessons Learned in 2018

    I learned if a customer starts off asking a bunch of questions and seems like there nit picking that to bid it high because of all the extra BS you'll have to put up with. Had that to happen two different times this past year! Found out that both customers had already had others clean but wasn't satisfied with any one's results on two other pressure washing business? Go figure that ?Always follow your gut feeling on any bids? Got into a little more wood & concrete cleaning to help our 2018 be a success! May try and boost a few post on FB for increase sales ?
  29. 2 points
    I’m 55, been in this business for 25+ years. Climbing ladders hurts a little more than it used to but I’m still rolling along. Busy most days of the week.
  30. 2 points
    Graco recently released a new line of Fine Finish Low Pressure Tips, which allow you to spray at about half the pressure as the old Fine Finish Tips. I thought this might be useful info for those who've stayed away from using an airless to apply stains & sealers due to excess overspray, as well as for those airless users looking for an improvement. I've used their old fine finish tips for years to apply stain, and I'd agree that even with a small tip and the pressure turned up just enough to create a good spray pattern, that overspray was often an issue. Since it's been steady rain here in Portland, OR for most of the spring so far, I've only done 2 stain jobs, but on both occasions I've had the chance to use the new Fine Finish Low Pressure Tips, and the difference is amazing. I'd definitely look into them if you're using an airless. Here's a link for those interested. Graco Fine Finish Low Pressure Tips
  31. 2 points

    Rust stains on composite decks

    Ok ... I'm just a little homeowner, not a contractor, but I AM WOMAN HEAR ME ROAR! LOL I figured out how to get Rust stains, that were left from my wrought iron furniture, off my Trex (2nd generation) light gray composite deck planks ......READY???? A simple and cheap Hydrogen Peroxide and Baking Soda paste you can make, and an old toothbrush! IT WORKS! (I came to this site looking for a solution or recommendation and didn't so I started trying different things myself and WHOLA! Hope this helps! Each stain took me about 10 minutes, to scrub with this paste, but they all came up! Good Luck!
  32. 2 points
    With new power washing season around the corner I am interested in seeing how others are attracting new business this year.
  33. 2 points
    We have always done Home Advisor, Local advertising and all the usual door hangers etc. We have been lacking with our internet presence so we have a new website and are working on our visibility on line. John
  34. 2 points
    Largely, we have had great success with just our web site. Rod
  35. 2 points
    Beth n Rod

    Armstrong Clark deck

    Thought I would post a job or two. It's always nice to apply this finish, the customers LOVE it! Beth
  36. 2 points
    Beth n Rod

    Defining your Overhead

    Hello Everyone. Thought I would put up some relevant articles for those who are trying to figure out how to price their bids/quotes. Many people on TGS and other bulletin boards have asked the question; How do I figure out my price? The responses have been varied but the most common have correctly been to find out what YOUR costs are and price yourself in respect to them. Other contractors prices may seem like a good gauge or a way of being competitive but their pricing structure may be wrong or not inclusive of the many necessary costs of doing business and as a result we see those companies disappear in a short time because they weren't properly covering their costs and ran the business literally into the ground and went broke. So when it comes to competitive pricing, one must consider there will be many aspects of a competitors price that they won't be aware of and as a result, it becomes a shot in the dark when applying their pricing to yours. But how does one determine their own pricing? Overhead is the first part of it. It all starts with the constant costs or recurring costs of doing business. These costs are the underlying basis of what has to be paid to operate a business and are seen in the forms of: -phone bills, internet service and possibly cloud based services with a monthly fee -utilities (electric, water, etc) -insurance(s) (Business, workmans comp, vehicle, liability, health and equipment etc) -Space/building rent/lease and maintenance fees -Administrative staff -Equipment rental/payment and repairs -Licensing and in some localities, taxes. These are the most common and come with a regular billing cycle and as such can be quantified into monthly averages or increments which can be factored into a unique cost percentage that becomes part of the overhead equation. Some of these are direct costs while others which occur as a result of operational requisite become indirect costs. One way and typically the easiest way to derive an overhead cost is to gain an average. Taking all these costs and any others your business may incur into consideration, add them all up together. Divide them either by the number of months if they occur quarterly, semi annually etc and then divide by the number of days in that period relative to their billing. This gives you a daily cost. Take all others which occur on a monthly basis and divide by the number of days in a month if they are billed in that manner. This gives another daily cost. Add these costs together and get a cumulative cost for all. This is what you need to make per day to cover these expenses. Let's break that down into some examples. Monthly costs; rent/maintenance fees-$3000.00 utilites-$450.00 (avg) phone-internet-cloud based subscriptions-$1000.00 Insurances (combined for this example) $5000.00 Administrative/staff-$20,000.00 State/local taxes (average for this example) $1500.00 Equipment/vehicle payment/repairs-$1500.00 Total Monthly payments:$32450.00 Divide that by 30 days (365/12=30.41666) =$1081.00 This is the amount of money you need to bring everyday to cover your operational costs. Now, you can look into other costs that will be added into your overhead figure and broken down to equate to a price you can use towards bidding/quoting a job. Employee wages for the work as a start. Do you have any measure of productivity to apply towards gaining an hourly price? For example, how long does it take to wash X sqft of ____________? You can use a couple of ways to determine that but most people who have been in the business know how long it takes to wash anything they bid. They time it or they use the results in the time taken in previous jobs similar to it to create an average by the hour or sqft. or even sqft/hour and that will be based upon the equipment being used or not used, the number of employees on that job and include set up and break down times. Some will even factor a travel time based upon a service area they designate and anything that falls outside of that area, an extra cost will be added in the form of a percentage of labor/fuel and any other expenses such as tolls and metering fees if they need to attach to a hydrant. Many companies make the mistake of solely pricing by time and materials in which time is the wages of the employee's on the job and not necessarily those of the owners and administrative staff (if any) creating a negative pricing structure which leads to a company working into debt. This is why knowing all your costs up front helps to keep your company profitable and helping to create a price that not only covers all your expenses but also contributes to profits and incidental cost coverage without which can hurt of cripple a company. I will provide a small example of a pricing model, but realize this is but an illustration for the basis of helping you to determine how to go about creating your companies unique pricing guide. Only you know what those costs are because you are the one that has set them up, and your responsibility for paying them on time and regularly depends upon accounting for them in all bids and prices you give. Earlier, we arrived at a price of $1081.00/day the business needs. Let's assume you have enough business under your belt to have a record of previous jobs which are recorded for start and end times, the number of employee's on those jobs and the expenses that went into completing them. 1. Travel time: 20 minutes city driving/15 mile radius 2. Time of the job: 4 hours 3. Employees active: 2 4. Wage of each employee: $14/hr and $16/hr 5. Fuel for the power washer at $2.59/gal and the power washer runs for 5 hours on a 7 gallon tank 6. Plus diesel fuel for the burner at $2.99/gal and it's duration is dependent upon temperature required X time in use. 7. Avg at same 5 hours of gas used and heated to 150*=6 gallons/5 hours=1.2/gal/hour 8. Vehicle fuel at $2.59/gal and your mpg is 15X15 miles=1 gallon of gas used to transport vehicle and employee's. 9.Set up time=15 minutes 10. Break down time=15 minutes 11. Chemicals used @ $3.00/gallon X 1 gallon and downstreamed 1 -> wages for travel (butt time) 14/hour/60=.23/minute X 20 minutes=4.66 + 16/hour/60=.26/minute X 20 minutes = 5.33 which equals $9.99 2, 3 and 4 -> job time; 14 X 4 =56, 16 X 4 =64 which equals $120.00 5-> 7/5=1.4gal/hour X 4hours = 5.6 gallons X $2.59 = $14.50 in gasoline fuel used 6, 7 -> 1.2/gal/hr X 4/hrs = 4.8 gallons X $2.99 = $14.35 in diesel used 8 -> $2.59 for vehicle fuel 9 and 10 ->.23 X 15/minutes = $3.45 + .26 X 15/minutes = $3.90 which equals $7.35 X 2 (break down time added here) = $14.70 11 -> $3.00 chems. Total-$179.13 direct job cost (time/materials etc) Average this for a regular day at 8 hours equates to $358.26 Add in the overhead figure-$1081.00+$358.26=$1439.26 For simplicity sake, divide by 8=$179.90/hour Break that down by sqft if you like by dividing that number in the total sqft covered. Let's put a figure out there of 3500/sqft / 4 hours = 875 sqft/hr that 2 employee's can cover in a 4 hour period 875/4=218.75sqft/hr 218.75/2 employee's = 109.37 sqft/hour Now, we have broken this down to the hour and sqft. Do we know how much we need to charge per/sqft to cover a days expenses? 3500sqft x 2 = 7000sqft a crew can cover in a day. $1439.26 is our direct cost including overhead. 7000/$1439.26=.20/sqft BUT!!! that doesn't cover any margin we need to make also known as profit. What is the percentage you wish to make to help your company grow? 10%, 15%, 20%? Take your total expenses and multiply it times the percentage you need to make. Remember though, this can affect serveral things. One is your competitiveness in pricing. The other is your revenue tax bracket. An accountant would be best served to advise you on this subject. Below, I have provided some links to the topic for the benefit of supporting documentation and reference in case something is not clear here. Remember also, that in a service business, many examples provided in the links will be based upon selling a product. I have tailored the examples here to apply towards a service business like our industry has and it is from that basis that I hope to have covered as many bases as possible. Feel free to ask questions, make suggestions, post examples and any other relevant information or ideas. After all, this is where people come to learn. http://smallbusiness.theprivatebank.com/how-to-avoid-three-common-profit-mistakes/ http://www.wikihow.com/Calculate-Overhead Rod
  37. 2 points
    Guy B

    Newbie question

    From your background, you should already have a good idea as far as chems....it's acids, caustics, or bleach.....the job determines what is to be used. I know what "we" should be charging, the question is what should "you" be charging.....I have no answer to that....only you know. It could be as low as $.05 per sq. ft. or as high as $1.00 per sq. ft......depends on the situation & job....many factors play into pricing......Good luck!
  38. 2 points
    ACR is a great find for new or old salts in the PW business. We're fortunate to have Tom, Barbara, and crew local to keep us in business. Been dependent on ACR for now 14 yrs. for nearly all of our chemicals, stains, equipment, and repairs.
  39. 2 points
    A person can drive themselves crazy worrying if they got a good deal. Some will say it is a good deal and some will say it is a bad deal, All that matters is that you are happy with it. And if that's the case then it doesn't matter what anyone says.
  40. 2 points

    PWNA Bulletin Board is open!

    Guy is the real deal. Had the pleasure of sitting down with a bunch of friends and getting to know him over drinks. Very interesting, knowledgeable, astute PW'er and just all around nice, engaging person. Next year will even be better!
  41. 2 points

    Envirospec Still in Business??

    I have been blessed being within an hour's drive of ACR Products. Aside from a few odd chemicals, they have supplied all my needs for the past 13 years. Custom equipment, repairs, advice, Tom, Barbara, and crew have kept me in business.
  42. 2 points

    Making my own stripper.

    It's the nature of the beast Ryan when stripping with a hot mix or multiple strips combined with the age of the wood it's bound to be fuzzy! I've seen newer wood not get as fuzzy as like a 5-10 yr old deck after stripping. It's a small price to pay when starting over by removing a old stain with the stripping process. The bright side is the deck should never need to be stripped again once you are done stripping /sanding and staining! :cool:
  43. 2 points

    For those who do staining in Virginia

    Im saving so much money now that we escaped the people's communist Republic of NY, that I don't mind paying for a license. Just another selling point for me anyway. I'm sure it also helps weed out SOME hacks as well.
  44. 2 points
    Lightning Gene

    Equipment Upgrade

    We run a 10gpm on both my trailers........My Maxima is no problem but my Hydrotek 28 is faster
  45. 2 points
    Ultimately before the good in anything gets tainted, it's mankinds inert drive that propels us through history to do better and advance ourselves to a more comfortable "survival setting". Many of us share to help newbs avoid the learning curve and mistakes. Many of us share different techniques from pro to pro. Many of us don't care, many of us do. It's a lot the same on many of the forums out there that I am members of. Ultra lite aircraft forums....... man those dudes will fly to you and land in your back yard to help out with your build. On the guitar forums.... there are secrets shared that can make a washed up rocker that would make one come out of retirement. The product and invention forums are similar but very guarded. I think it all comes back around full circle for everyone at some point... You ask the question "Why do we help with info"..... I say why not........ we know who needs help and who doesn't..... but for the folks that stumble on these forums looking for info, I prefer that none of my info be incorrect...... so I bite my tongue sometimes too, until I'm sure of myself. But hey, after 12 yrs now, I'm in it, with what I know.
  46. 2 points
    Beth n Rod

    Would appreciate some opinions

    Matthew, Don't take it personally. This is actually good advice considering the poster has been through much as have the rest of us. You are here asking for advice and the one side is you may get some you didn't expect. In trying to be helpful, certain questions lead to other questions which make us respond accordingly. Being in business means thinking about things you woulnd't normally. Trust me in this....there are people out there who are good at trying to exploit new contractors. They know you are hungry and haven't developed your client base or reputation. The forums are here to help. Some may help in other ways. That's all. Rod
  47. 2 points
    Beth n Rod

    Words of wisdom for any morning.

    One day closer to spring? Beth
  48. 2 points
    Douglas Hicks

    Gas Can Explosions

    Static electricity is more common on cold, clear days. Possible factor? I think the cause is most likely the explosive language used because the code-compliant fuel cans leak fuel all over the equipment.
  49. 2 points
  50. 2 points

    Ego vs. Giving Back

    Ideally, people will just give back out of the goodness of their hearts. And if the press picks it up, all the better. But, I guess even if you're only doing the good thing for the free publicity, at least something good is being done for someone else -- which is better than nothing being done at all.